Blob/Cat

2019/11/22 8:48:03 PM UTC

@ariasuni Free software needs to be disconnected from politics. Judging someone as good or bad is not the purpose of FOSS. Repositories in FOSS cannot and should not get burried in the app police role that Google and Apple have taken.We need to be better than that. If you don't like projects, you can speak out, and you have, and that's good. But asking someone to silence something you don't like is itself fascistic.

2019/11/22 10:10:57 PM UTC

@djsumdog
> Free software needs to be disconnected from politics.

Free Software was political from the beginning, because of its ethical and ideological motivations.

> Repositories in FOSS cannot and should not get burried in the app police role that Google and Apple have taken.We need to be better than that

How the fuck fighting against hate speech is the same than Apple and Google protecting their economical interests??

2019/11/23 3:05:32 AM UTC

@ariasuni

> because of its ethical and ideological motivations.

Which revolved around being able to inspect code and fix things. It had nothing to do with race, sex, gender, or anything other than just being able to fix code. It's like saying to God "give me the source code to our damn DNA because I can't decompile it." It was not about the politics you think it was (maybe RMS's abortion comment in glibc?, which is gone now anyway).

>fighting against hate speech

Talk. Be open. Understand.

2019/11/23 3:07:30 AM UTC

@ariasuni If you label everything you don't like as hate speech, you're never going to grow as a person yourself or influence those who disagree with you. Speech is speech. It's not violence. Also from that thread; the people on that instance seemed rational. Maybe talking is better than screaming. I'm sick of everyone just calling everyone else Nazis or whatever and not actually talking. When you talk, you learn about each other and why you have concerns. Then you can move forward. Together.

2019/11/22 10:13:45 PM UTC

@djsumdog
> But asking someone to silence something you don't like is itself fascistic.

1. It’s not something «I don’t like», it’s something that actively and blatantly hurts marginalized people. That’s a *fact*.
2. No it’s not. I don’t know, just read Wikipedia or open a dictionary, you’ll see how much saying this is bullshit.

Seriously, I just want F-Droid to not support or facilitate hate speech, and you’re saying I’m a fascist. That’s so fucking backwards.

2019/11/23 3:10:10 AM UTC

@ariasuni
> I’m a fascist

fascistic != fascist. It's fascistic. I'm not labeling you, but I think you're ideology in this point goes against moving forward together as a human race that is moving towards a better world. Silencing people for x, y or z does not move us forward. It is so easy to label x as "bad" or "nazi" or "hitler" and you close off actual, real, legit discussion.

F-Dord's team just wants good open source apps. Allow reproducible builds and that's their ideology. That's it.

2019/11/23 3:15:40 AM UTC

@ariasuni @djsumdog

How the fuck fighting against hate speech is the same than Apple and Google protecting their economical interests??

It’s not - but it’s taking a similar role: moderating apps. Once you start moderating apps, you run into many issues (what should be allowed, what should be banned, my app got banned unfairly, etc). F-Droid currently has a simple process that can be applied to any app with no subjectiveness: is it open source? Anything subjective can be abused, justify censorship, etc, and the open source world should not do it.

This drama is very tired though, they’re not gonna agree no matter how much you complain (which is a good thing).

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2019/11/23 12:55:16 PM UTC

F-Droid, Spinster

@djsumdog if you're so concerned with technical merit, the Spinster app has no technical merit. As the moment I'm writing this, it is simply a rebranding of the Tusky app (which can already be used with the Spinster website), with instance pre-filled as spinster, and with an added minor bug when you're using it with something else than Spinster.

In effect, the only “value” of this app is being the digital equivalent of a flyer to promote that particular website, which, under a very thin veil of respectable, “anti-hate speech” feminism, heavily revolves around and promotes “gender critical” ideologies in the form of ridiculing and attacking transgender people (which all of that instance's admin do to varying levels). It is hate speech. It is violent. Worse, that website is a gateway to that kind of stuff and F-Droid is promoting it.

Listening to people hating you and unwilling to listen to you doesn't make you “grow as a person”.

2019/11/23 4:14:10 PM UTC

@Thib

> It is hate speech. It is violent.

This is where you are absolutely, 100% wrong. Speech is not violence. This is from the book Coddling of the American Mind (p98-99) which explains what's so dangerous about that particular concept creep.

2019/11/23 4:16:58 PM UTC

@djsumdog it's not the “asking for peaceful discussion” that is violent. They are not “asking for peaceful discussion”. They are shitting hateful discourse all over the place. What if I repeatedly told you that people like you are disgusting creeps and should die?
Wouldn't that be violence?

2019/11/23 4:20:02 PM UTC

@Thib No. That's not violence at all. That's literally still just words. From the same book. @OCRBot

2019/11/23 4:23:12 PM UTC

@djsumdog hateful and discriminating words have very real harmful consequences, including physical violence, discriminating laws or policies, etc.

Your definition of violence is far from being universal, and I actually don't care whether you call hateful, harmful and discriminating speech violent or not. The fact stands that it is hateful, harmful and discriminating. And thus shouldn't be promoted.

2019/11/23 4:27:26 PM UTC

@djsumdog I could also say that your definition is 100% wrong

the first dictionary definition I can find for “violence” is literally “actions or words that are intended to hurt people”

dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/di

2019/11/23 4:38:47 PM UTC

@Thib Webster doesn't agree:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary

The words by themselves do not have harmful consequences, it's the actions. You know at one time it was greatly offensive to say god doesn't exist, or that homosexuals should be acceptable at Oxford or that the Bible should be translated to English? Brenden O'Neil does a great talk about this. Were those ideas violent? They were just ideas, but people took action against them. Freedom of speech protects ideas.

youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HR

2019/11/23 4:50:48 PM UTC

@djsumdog words do not have harmful consequences, right

What if you grew up around people telling you you were shit, all the time. As long as it's just words, that surely wouldn't have any consequence on how you'd grow up and construct yourself.

Fascist propaganda is also just words, I'm sure that without it, actions would have been exactly the same.

2019/11/23 4:54:27 PM UTC

@ariasuni @djsumdog
>> Free software needs to be disconnected from politics.
>
> Free Software was political from the beginning, because of its ethical and ideological motivations.

I don't think you understand free software at all if you think that it is connected to gender identity.

There are things that are not about you, you know? Free Software is not a soldier in your fight. This should have been totally apparent from a first reading of GPL: it is precisely created so that anyone, any race or creed, communist or capitalist, has the right to use it. Yes, this includes fascists just as it includes trannies. This topic has been discussed at length in many places.

>How the fuck fighting against hate speech is the same than Apple and Google protecting their economical interests??
Renaming something does not change it. Here you write as "fighting against hate speech" the action of mass reporting and lobbying to deplatform free software which is politically undesirable to you specifically. It's dishonest writing and you know it. Frankly you should apologize for attempting such a manipulative slight of hand.

2019/11/23 4:53:24 PM UTC

@djsumdog and again, the initial point was to not have what amounts to a flyer for an instance based around hate speech be stored, distributed, and put on the frontpage of F-Droid

If it's fine because those are just words, I guess an app calling for the death of all Free Software activists would be just as good as long as it is itself Free Software

2019/11/23 4:58:16 PM UTC

@Thib

> death of all Free Software activists

In America, speech has limits and specific violence against a person or a people is generally not protected. But it varies on the case.

And F-Dorid is purely concerned with: is the software free/libre. It may just be a rebrand, but forking in the OSS world for minor things is pretty normal: XFree86 vs Xorg. Amazon rebrands FOSS offerings all the time (Reddis -> ElastiCache).

Why are you so afraid anyway? If they're so wrong, they won't last.

2019/11/23 5:04:44 PM UTC

violence (maybe not, those are just words)

@djsumdog

American law

Ok, let's not call for the death of Free Software activists, let's just have an app that says the world would be a better place if Free Software activists were kind enough to get ran over by a truck.

Why are you so afraid anyway? If they're so wrong, they won't last.

Ok, let's bring up the actual Nazis as an extreme example. Most (obviously not all, unfortunately) people agree to say they were terrible, and to some extent, they “haven't lasted” (at least in the form of the actual Nazi Party and government). I think you'll still agree that those ideas ultimately caused a lot of people to be discriminated against, and killed.

2019/11/23 5:38:38 PM UTC

violence (maybe not, those are just words)

@Thib
> have an app that says the world would be a better place if Free Software activists were kind enough to get ran over by a truck.

I'm fine with this. Go for it. I hate my jobs and life most days anyways. If someone took me out, I'd be fine with that. I doubt you'd get very much support though.

Nazi germany is a very special case. It had the backing of IBM, Ford Motor, American Standard Oil, banks. It was less about speech and more about money.

2019/11/23 6:01:59 PM UTC

@ariasuni @djsumdog

> It’s not something «I don’t like», it’s something that actively and blatantly hurts marginalized people. That’s a *fact*.

Right before WW2 happened, the fascists also believed that through freedom the richer people were marginalizing the poorer people. From their perspective, they were just trying to protect their marginalized selves.

Fascism is derived entirely from socialism, but with a little twist, where they realized that socialism would never help reaching the communist utopia, yet the leaders didn't quite feel like just giving up all that political power that they've attained.

So they sought out to continue to get rid of freedom by centralizing all power to the state, thereby creating a totalitarian rule, that would later naturally cause millions of deaths. Therefore, to say "censorship is fascistic" is not backwards at all. But considering the amount of freedom taken away under a fascistic dictatorship, to insinuate, that anybody who desires freedom is therefore a fascist, is quite laughable.

> I just want F-Droid to not support or facilitate hate speech

Because you believe that human rights are less valuable than some enlightened sacred truth that you hold. Just like the fascists and communist and socialists of of today and of the 20th century, who held the same principle, and then put it into practice. They had their own excuses which they thought were very good reasons to justify human rights violations, such as censorship among many other terrible things.

So far as they are concerned, the one who violates the sensibilities of the "dear leader", he does not deserve human rights and the heavier the pointless punishment and torture and murder, the more "virtuous" the zealot who is carrying it out. When you play a part in making human rights a secondary priority, don't be surprised when your own human rights end up violated and dismissed.

Unlike you, i wouldn't take such a risk. So I would much prefer that F-Droid stands on principle and facilitates freedom and transparency.. after all, isn't that the primary purpose /free software/?

2019/11/25 10:26:19 PM UTC

@fluffy @ariasuni @djsumdog

Good points.

Free software is incompatible with political correctness, codes of conduct are a kludge to bypass the "no discrimination" provisions of the Open Source Definition.

Good thing FOSS was invented when the tech industry was predominately libertarian. No way "hate licenses which permit use for discrimination" would be allowed in the tech industry today.