late stage capitalism in action

@yogthos i think it's time for apocalypse

@valerauko not gonna have wait too long at the rate the climate is collapsing

@yogthos "This park was brought to you by Amazon" made me want to violently puke

Fucking Amazon

@yogthos Bloody hell. That's not even. It's back to feudalism, presenting the King with gifts in the hope of receiving a favourable glance in the future.
Strap Bezos onto one of his rockets and give him a one-way test flight.

@yogthos ah yeah, in case we didn't get the notion Bezos was pro-slavery that time he tried to get the police to force strikers back to work.

I won't say what I'd like to do to him on account of someone might take it as encouragement and I don't want to be an accessory to that kind of crime. Or in this case, merely an accessory.

@yogthos link? Please

@yogthos Hah, the free market! (Also, something like that exists in Belgium, too, and was meant to be a temporary measure to get the economy back on track ... until it stopped being temporary.)

OCR Output (chars: 2182)

Image 1:
Example: Chicago has offered to let
Amazon pocket $1.32 billion in income
taxes paid by its own workers. This is truly
perverse. Called a personal income-tax
diversion, the workers must still pay the
full taxes, but instead of the state getting
the money to use for schools, roads or
whatever, Amazon would get to keep it all

“The result is that workers are, in effect,
paying taxes to their boss,” says a report on
the practice from Good Jobs First, a think
tank critical of many corporate subsidies.

Image 2:
= The Seattle Times Pp

Most of the HQ2 bids had more traditional
sweeteners. Such as Chula Vista,
California, which offered to give Amazon
85 acres of land for free (value: $100
million) and to excuse any property taxes
on HQ2 for 30 years ($300 million). New
Jersey remains the dollar king of the
subsidy sweepstakes, having offered
Amazon $7 billion to build in Newark.

But more of a bellwether to me are
proposals that effectively would put
Amazon inside the government.

Some are small. Boston I has offered to set
up an “Amazon ” of city
employees working on the company’s
behalf. These would include a workforce
coordinator, to help with Amazon’s
employment needs, as wellasa
community- relations official to smooth
over Amazon conflicts throughout Boston.

Image 3:
= The Seattle Times Pp

Fresno promises to funnel 85 percent of all
taxes and fees generated by Amazon intoa
special fund. That money would be
overseen by a board, half made up of
Amazon officers, half from the city. They’re
supposed to spend the money on housing,
roads and parks in and around Amazon.

The proposal shows a park with a sign:
“This park brought to you by Amazon,”
with the company’s smiling arrow
corporate logo.

Image 4:
= The Seattle Times Pp

Is it even legal to give a company direct
sway over civic spending like that?

When asked about it, Fresno’s economic-
development director threw the public
interest under the bus.

disappearing into
on would have a
»” he told the Los

Angeles Times. “

You poor fools out on the fringe of town.
All this time you’ve been paying your
taxes, thinking it was for the broader
public good. Suckers.

@mewmew Not sure I’d say this is much to do with ‘late stage capitalism’ so much as ‘government in action’. About five seconds after governments of all stripes figured out that taxes are a thing they figured out that they, or the forgiveness/manipulation thereof, can be used for all sorts of things to direct or encourage/discourage actions. The real question then becomes, why would these cities be willing to do this for Amazon? I somehow doubt it has anything to do with getting better Prime deliveries or such. The logical reason would be the cities in question figure they’ll get more value than the taxes would have directly provided in the long run. It’s like an investment, where the city isn’t necessarily even paying money up front, just forgiving income they otherwise would have gotten. Not saying all these offers and such are equally good or anything of the sort. Just that in the end, the city will benefit more from doing the deal than they would have had they not. At least, one presumes that’s the case or the people running the city are morons, which is hardly unheard of

@wolfie @mewmew capitalism is the root cause of all that because it's the mechanism that accumulates the wealth at the top. This results in an oligarchy which is the 1%.

This oligarchy owns the politicians because they fund their campaigns, they give them bribes, they lobby, and they own the news media that promotes the politicians convenient to the oligarchy.

The reason politicians pass laws that favor the rich is because they're owned by the rich.

they do it because it employs a lot of people, many of whose jobs were taken or made obsolete by amazon
@yogthos @mewmew

@yogthos lol! Is this an autoimmune civitas disease?


call it what it is, neofeudalism

@yogthos @mewmew I could go on about how other systems result in far worse. I could point out lots of things here. However, I also am reasonably sure that will just result in the usual round and round with little point of anything. Instead, I’ll just skip all that and say: Okay, socialist shrugfelix

@wolfie @yogthos @mewmew there's not a point to anything
your life, my life, it is all meaningless
but there is a meaning to something
we find meaning... in lulcows

@georgia @mewmew @yogthos Now, this is a useful answer. :D And yes, whether their jobs were nuked by Amazon or not, that is pretty much the why of it. As to whether that’s a wise investment or not, couldn’t really say without getting way more into the details than I want to haha

@4chan @mewmew @yogthos All hail the lulcows!

@wolfie @mewmew last I checked the worst atrocities consistently happen under capitalism. However, even if it was true that other systems have been worse, thinking that nothing better than capitalism is possible is the height of absurdity.

One must have profound lack of imagination to think that the system they were born into is the best possible. Back before capitalism the same argument was sagely made by lots of dimwits about feudalism.

@yogthos @mewmew If that’s what you came up with when you last checked, you might want to check again. Communism and it’s friends hundred odd million victims would like a word with you. Yeltsin didn’t have his faith in communism utterly destroyed on the battlefield or even by Wall St. All it took was a visit to an American grocery store. Is Capitalism the best system that ever will be? Probably not. Is it better than anything anyone has come up with so far? Yes. This is history’s verdict on the matter. Have a good day blobsmile

@wolfie @mewmew you have to be quite an ignoramus to think that capitalism killed less people than communism

The verdict is that of an ignoramus who doesn't know the first thing about history. Have a good day.

@yogthos Amazon is evil, but more evil is the system that allows this to happen.

@Shufei that's the only appropriate reaction here

@xmanmonk absolutely, Amazon is just a symptom of the underlying problems inherent in capitalism

@yogthos wow, cool cool cool.

@yogthos @wolfie @mewmew
>Discovers flaw in the system


@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie pretty big flaw when a system allows 1% of the population to hold over half the wealth and has resulted in the destruction of our ecosystem to the point where we might go extinct if you ask me

@yogthos @mewmew @wolfie
And what about communism?

I'm sure they are open to climate change discussions, I'm sure they won't censor you and I'm sure they'll care about it

Isn't communist China the number #1 polluter in the world? Isn't it also the one country that refused reduction goals unlike the rest of the west?

As for the 1% meme, listen, read about economy you're just making yourself look silly mate

@yogthos that is absolutely disgusting! blobfox0_0

@yogthos This is infuriating, but at the same time it's almost funny how this "capitalism" is anything but a free market.

How could any new business compete with this?

A giant that the government literally has to bribe the hope that the giant will do what the government want.

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie that's a really weird argument seeing how a lot of what China produces is consumed in the West

>As for the 1% meme, listen, read about economy you're just making yourself look silly mate


@fireglow capitalism in a nutshell

@rune I find most tropes associated with capitalism are completely absurd and have nothing to do with reality. Capitalism lifting people out of poverty, free markets, the invisible hand of the market, GDP measuring anything of value, and so on.

@yogthos Exactly. All capitalism seems to be at this point is the population choosing to be governed by whoever has the most money.

That basically sounds exactly like a kingdom...

We're just not quite there yet, there's gotta be a _later_ stage capitalism where America is just divided into the Amazon, Google, and Apple kingdoms.

@yogthos All while the workers themselves break down.

(I'm using a dehumanizing term here for a reason. That's how Amazon treat them.)

It is widely known that the followers of the left are egregious ignorants, you're quoting a boomer meme as argument so...

>That's ironic because most of what China does is consumed in the west?

Bahahwha, what does that even mean you silly lolcow?

So it's not pollution because the resources are made into tangible products? Or because it is bought? What if it's something intangible, then it's pollution? Lmao elfie

@mewmew @wolfie

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie you're just spewing utter ignorant nonsense here goodbye

@rune basically things are going back to the way capitalism worked during Victorian times, and that's how we got revolutions last time around. History is cyclical because people refuse to learn from it.

That's because you can't defend your convictions, but it's not just you, the left can't be defended with anything else other than violence that's why every time it reached government was through blood AsukaShrug

@mewmew @wolfie

@yogthos Fortunately for all of us, you may have forgotten that history doesn’t repeat itself. It rhymes... I hope...

@yogthos so the government funneling your money to a private entity is capitalism?

@yogthos @Elfie @mewmew

Are we supposed to conclude here that since the so-called “1%” have more, all the rest of us somehow have less? Personally, I don’t particularly care that others have more than I do or anyone else. Perhaps we should not try and decide what we do based more on wealth envy than anything else?

Oh, and while reduction of pollution and all that are good things, we’re not going to go extinct any time soon.

Since I decided I am going to bother responding for the moment, I read the link you sent earlier. Here’s the thing with that, to get some huge total that supposedly “capitalism” “killed”, quotes because pretty obvious reasons, they have to stretch the living daylights out of definitions and all reason.

On the other hand, one doesn’t have to jump through any mental gymnastics or twist definitions to directly tie communist policies to the deaths of millions. While no unjust death is good, the terrible truth is that most of those deaths were at the hands of their own governments. For disagreeing. By self-caused famine. Forced relocations. On and on and on. Repression and violence and death on their own people to force them to comply or die. But hey, it’s cool. Everyone was well off and the people were doing well. As long as you were one of the lucky ones at the top, anyway.

I’ve said it before and I’m sure I’ll have to say it again when this reprehensible idea crawls out from the dark yet again. Millions have risked their lives to try and immigrate from one system or descendant system and to the other. It sure as hell wasn’t from capitalist systems to communist ones. They didn’t build the Berlin Wall to keep the west out, but to keep their own people from leaving. Exactly no one has built a home made raft to leave Florida to go to Cuba, yet they still come back the other way. Odd that.

Don't bother responding to low level commies, you can counter them making simple arguments

They don't think logically so you're not gonna win that way

@yogthos @mewmew

@Elfie @mewmew @yogthos Eh, abuse of history and language bugs me to no end. That said, at times I feel like I’m arguing with children who demand more cookies for being special little children shrugfelix

Well you have to consider that leftist are for the most part not very intelligent, to the point they might have never read the manifesto or anything at all, those who did read they are more fun but they still don't think very rationally

@mewmew @yogthos

@Elfie @wolfie @yogthos you're stereotyping a bit there

That's what I've seen at least AsukaShrug

@wolfie @yogthos

@Elfie @wolfie @yogthos I think you definitely have some selection bias there

Regardless, it's not conductive to a productive discuss to think that way

This adds nothing to my answer but I do live in a socialist country mind you

@wolfie @yogthos

@mister_monster of course, the reason the government is funneling your money to private entities is because it's owned by these entities. When the capitalists own majority of the wealth in the country they get to buy your government.

@0x00 seems like a case of a corporation telling the government what to do as opposed to the other way around

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie It's pollution outsourced from the West, which is only produced because they are paid to produce it by overseas companies. Even with that pollution outsourcing, the environmental impact per capita is higher in Western nations. Infinite growth is the ideology of cancer.

@it_wasnt_arson @Elfie @wolfie agreed. We're finally running up on the limit of the past 300 years of growth

@mewmew @wolfie @Elfie And to what end? Do smart teakettles and slightly thinner smartphones actually make people's lives better, when the cost of manufacturing is paid in blood?

@Elfie @mewmew @yogthos Not sure as I’d agree there to be honest. I’ve known some very intelligent leftists and by-in-large they’re no more or less intelligent than any other sort.

Of course, the most intelligent person in the world can still be immature, for lack of other handy word, in their world view or experience. From my admittedly limited experience and perspective, this is usually what has been lacking. It’s part of why I tend to view such things as more childlike than ‘stupid’. However, there are many dangers in going too far down that road and thus excess should be avoided

@it_wasnt_arson @wolfie @Elfie yeah, that's the problem with a market economy: it doesn't care

A free market is a useful tool for certain applications but is not a good baseline ruleset for an economy.

@it_wasnt_arson @Elfie @mewmew I suppose it depends on what one is speaking growing “infinitely”. If one is speaking of wealth and economies, then while I hesitate to say ‘infinite’ for pretty obvious reasons, there’s nothing saying it can’t continue to grow within reason. Nothing has really been presented to say otherwise. While it is possible one may run out of finite resources, we’re perfectly capable of going out and getting more or inventing technology that obsolesces those resources we’re running out for example, oil.

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie We're pretty imminently running out of viable ecosystems and places to dump CO2, wasting resources on peanut butter, beef, and disposable electronics.

@mewmew @it_wasnt_arson @Elfie Markets don’t care nor should they. They aren’t intelligent or sentient laughing_cirno

I joke, but also a bit serious. Markets don’t care, but consumers and buyers most certainly do. The market isn’t some thing that is apart from us. It isn’t some force on its own. It’s us. It reflects our values and our desires. To use the example given earlier for thinner phones and what not, those sell not because the market says they do but because we do. The success of electric cars, a long time coming I think, and other alternatives is not being dictated from on high by either government or some other force but because we, in the form of the market, want such and thus it is being made

@wolfie @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson people, in general, are selfish and short-sighted and the failure of the market to produce ethical, sustainable goods reflects that.

When coordinated, people can potentially work on longer-term, cooperative goals that benefit society as a whole.

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie It's really easy to blame people for buying things they're told to buy when there are a handful of people who could write a single email and shut down hundreds of factories (and still afford to keep paying the workers for the rest of their lives). Commodities are produced because people produce them and market them.

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie Peanut butter is great though :D

Disposable electronics sucks. Period. Of course, there’s tons of push back against that as there should be. It’s about time, too. I’m not saying things are perfect as they definitely are not. I’m saying we don’t have to give up all we’ve accomplished or possibly worse, force the rest of the world that has yet to catch up with some of us not to do so. It just needs to continue in the direction of more sustainable ways. I don’t personally believe we need some huge government action or need to overturn all there is to accomplish this. Things are already moving in that direction, even if not necessarily as fast as optimum

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie Marketing is not brainwashing. Don’t want to buy unsustainable products, then you just simply don’t. People are responsible for their actions and the idea that some marketing simply “told people to do it” relieves them of that fact is nonsense.

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie And what if you have no other choice? Sustainability is also a marketing choice, and feeling good fetches a higher price. If you keep enough people poor enough, there will always be a market for cheap, convenient, unsustainable commodities.

@mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson I tend to think that while people can be selfish and all that, they tend to be more price conscious than anything else. Making sustainable products tend to cost more and people aren’t demanding it as much. You can’t really force them to though. Not unless one wants to advocate for a gun to the head of everyone who buys anything that isn’t approved, no?

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie have you heard of anarchism

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie No one is “keeping people poor”. What the hell would even be the point of that? To reduce ones markets and not be able to sell? O.o

@wolfie @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson that's exactly my point: people are selfish. You didn't present a counterargument

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie Of course, what about it?

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie can you, gasp, imagine a world in which there are options other than "people try to extract maximum profit from your life every single day of your life" and "cops tell everyone what to do"

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie Ever heard of mining towns?

@mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson Hmmm.. fair enough. I think my point is that while people can be selfish, they also aren’t always automatically short sighted and won’t care at all. I think the problem is more than for most people in most situations, they simply don’t understand or believe there is a real problem.

Not sure if that makes sense or not though?

@yogthos OK, that's one take on it. I'm gonna go with Occam's razor on this one and say its because people in Chicago elected a bunch of corrupt pieces of shit, the flaws in the political system notwithstanding.

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie I would say that’s called “now”, but I imagine that you’d dispute that laughing_cirno

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie Yes, again, of course

@wolfie @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson yeah, I see your point

Similar result though

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie Paying workers less means more profits. Keeping people around who can't afford to buy anything other than your products means more profits. There is no benefit to paying workers any more than the absolute minimum they can get away with, especially if you can ensure that they feed their income right back into the company. The only recourse is worker organization, which is when the company brings forced arbitration to bear and calls the cops on strikers.

@mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson Possibly, but possibly not. If I’m correct, which is not entirely proven, it is less a fault of the system per se and more one of education and knowledge. In short, people do X because they don’t believe or aren’t aware that either alternatives exist or they are needed

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie Uhm.. that kinda presumes an absolutely closed and isolated system which doesn’t currently exist, does it not?

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie Or, maybe, people do know that things are wrong but are stuck in a situation where they need to work for the system or starve

@wolfie @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson I wouldn't say that, say, climate denial is due to education system failures so much as a total failure of the capitalist system (e.g. fake studies published by large corporation and an underfunded education system with a biased curriculum, again due to the influence of large and powerful corporations).

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie Close enough. Who's going to quit Kroger and move to the next town over with no car and $200 in their savings account to work at.... Target instead? Wages are unlivable everywhere.

Something that is entirely impossible in a communist or socialist regime

(If anyone is still talking about commies, sorry I'm being an asshole) aoko

@wolfie @it_wasnt_arson

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @wolfie I dunno, I don't feel like the claim "it's impossible to do things any better than we do them now" is very productive, or defensible.

The masses are free within reason

But you can't deny that marketing it's made to appeal to the most baseline impulses of humanity

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew

@mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson I might be able to buy that in 1980, but it’s a lot harder in 2019/2020 when one can look up whatever one wants. It’s also hard to accept when the phrase “climate denial” is a thing thus implying if not requiring that the vast overwhelming number of people agree that X is true.

That said, climate change isn’t a particularly amazing example for the previous point. It’s been politicized to such a great degree where we’re talking more about patriarchy (for example) than we are sustainable industry

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie Everything is political, and an issue that concerns the modes of production and control over resources and technology of the past 300 years more than anything.

There isn't any economical, cultural or politic way counter act that

You're complaining just because you don't know better
@wolfie @mewmew

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie It’s… not even remotely close. Factory towns with factory stores and people being paid with ‘chits’ is not even remotely the same thing as working at place XYZ and going to shop at ABC or wherever. Sorry, that kinda breaks down as an example pretty badly, you know?

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @mewmew Sure, but that doesn’t relieve people of their own responsibilities and decision making. If I go out and buy the Gas Guzzler 9000 to commute 5 miles every day, I’ve got no one to blame for my stupidity than myself

You're talking about an extreme that isn't applicable to most of the west and some places in Asia

And the places it can be applied to are subject to much more than just economy

@wolfie @mewmew

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie The ways it's not applicable are only through state action on behalf of workers, and the places that have it worst are because of state action on behalf of employers

Surely you've got some articles or something?

Do remember that rewarding the successful is a key element of a healthy economy and society

@wolfie @mewmew

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie There’s “something may need a political solution” and “we’re conflating everything in the universe and trying to tie it all to the problem de jure so we can get traction on our pet projects”

The so-called patriarchy has nothing to do with sustainability, pollution, or anything else. The point I was trying to make, and badly apparently, was that by doing so it muddies the waters and leads to people being able to deny that X is true, because it’s been tied to everything under the sun

No what? This app doesn't follow threads very well

@mewmew @wolfie

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie Sure, but when 1,000,000 people buy the Gas Guzzler 9000, I'd like to have a word with whoever decided to manufacture, sell, and profit from the things

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @Elfie I’d argue it’s a terrible product as well. My point is, if no one buys them they don’t get made. Hummer in the US died a very very quick death when gas prices spiked and suddenly you didn’t see the stupid things around anymore

I think it is, because it encompasses human history as a whole, through history you can observe every political and economical model as well as their ethics

When you have practical proof of an idea then there isn't much ground to remain in theory or ring around the Rosie

Or it works or it doesn't

@it_wasnt_arson @wolfie

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson markets aren't a democracy or majority vote- if you're a billionaire you get much, much, much, much more say than regular people in what happens in the world. currently the billionaires favor climate change, so we get climate change

@wolfie "so called patriarchy" lmao

@wolfie It in fact does, maybe not to the extent that some other things have to do with it, but there's a lot to be analyzed in a very complex world

@it_wasnt_arson If one is intending to replace the entire system with one of their own choosing, then sure. Otherwise, not so much. When the only relationship between issue ABC and XYZ are that they supposedly occur within the same macro-system, linking them isn’t required and is probably harmful to solving one or the other of the issues

Well many things work, but the idea is making something work while minimising human suffering, otherwise I would be no different than a commie aoko

@it_wasnt_arson @wolfie

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @wolfie most of human history has kinda sucked. In the 1800s would you say that not dying of bacterial infections was impossible? That's incredibly self-defeating.

@wolfie I'd argue that
-it should never have been made
-people should not be able to benefit from taking the decision to make it
-the fact that there exists such a demand for it is a symptom of a fundamentally flawed transportation system that needs to be reoriented toward mass transit

@it_wasnt_arson In other words, correct me if I’m mistaken, force a command economy where people are only allowed to produce and consume those things deemed sufficiently ‘proper’ by whatever authority deems such. If I’m mistaken, let me know but that’s how that would seem to read, no?

@wolfie You're mistaken.

@it_wasnt_arson Fair enough, provide correction? blobsmile

@mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson I could be mistaken, but I think they may mean that while change is good and such, if it is to be done it should be done in a way which causes the least problems and least pain for the most people. Otherwise, they’d be as bad as a communist.

@Elfie , correct or no?

@jookia @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson Admittedly, I was going to reply to this but I’m honestly a little tired and not sure what to say that I haven’t already said elsewhere in this thread hahaha

In short though, as a billionaire you probably would be in charge of ‘things’ and thus have great sway in what those things do. However, it doesn’t mean we’re all slaves or screwed or need to take them down or whatever to make better choices. We are the market

@wolfie @mewmew @jookia @Elfie But they are also the market. Any action we take as consumers or workers is an attempt to indirectly convince them to take a direct action. Their word is a command on threat of starvation for thousands of people. They can outbid a hundred people's yearly income on a whim and never notice the spending.

@yogthos that's regular corruption welcome to how the rest of the world experiences capitalism for decades now.

@wolfie Put the decision of what to produce in the hands of the people doing the work to produce it. Dismantle the concept of property as exclusive and exclusionary rights to goods. Respect people's choices about their own lives as fully as possible, giving them the freedom to do so by providing for them. Build communities where people care about each other. Use automation to free people from work rather than depriving them of the right to live when they become useless to their boss.

@it_wasnt_arson Uhm.. sounds good on paper but congrats, you’ve arrived at communism. At least on paper anyway or so it sounds. We’ve been down that road several times and it’s a bloody and unpleasant one. I also like the idea of automation and what not making things easier for people. It sounds lovely. However, until and unless we have the resources of the Federation, that’s not how that story ends. History speaks very loudly and very clearly on this point

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson We are screwed- the people with the power to change things won't, and so our planet is hell.

Oh sure, sure I don't deny your point

I'm just saying that while marketing doesn't override freedom of thought it is indeed the foremost thing influencing people and the one thing that should've been regulated long ago

When products started to associate themselves with emotions cirnoStare

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew

@wolfie No shit I've arrived at communism. Not that nowhere did I mention the existence of a state that tells people what to produce based on central commands.

@it_wasnt_arson A leads to B as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. To say otherwise is the same tired refrain of “This time it’ll be different” and its good pal, “If only we had the right people in charge…”

It’s much the same with communism’s other other great issues, crimes and so on. Blood, fire, death and disease. Hard pass, thanks :)

@jookia @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson Hardly hell. Has issues, but hardly hell. I’d argue it’s actually getting better, even if it isn’t there as yet.

@Elfie Maybe you'd know about economic, cultural, and political ways to counter that if you actually tried to think about it or research things people have been talking about for the past 150 years or so

Oh, so you know a way to fix humanity, the environment, politics, culture, economy and everything ever?

Please do tell me elfie

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @mewmew

When products started to associate themselves with emotions

You mean sometime in WhateverBC? :D

It’s always been that way to one degree or another. It does influence, though lord knows how and why. I may have a biased view on this due to my very strong belief in personal choice and that generally speaking, I find marketing ineffective for the most part

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson Getting better how? We're overpopulated, running out of water, pushing animals to extinction, burning our land, suffocating from smoke and smog.

@wolfie What if, instead of trying to have the right people in charge..... we didn't have anyone in charge, and weren't immediately invaded by the US or USSR

@it_wasnt_arson Haha, well, thing with that is that you’d likely find that society would trends more towards ancap as that tends to be more inline with people’s natural tendencies when left alone. More productive as well. I could get onboard with that thinking_cirno

@jookia @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson Can’t speak to those last parts as I don’t know where you are. Some parts of the world that’s definitely true but many many others it’s not.

We have a lot of population, but we’re not running out of water or much of anything else. Well, except maybe oil. I say maybe because I know the media insists that’s the case but that’s been what’s been said for.. well, I’ve no idea really. In any case, point is, things were way worse. They are trending generally better. Not to say great or perfect or anything of the sort. Just better. I could go through all the statistics but we’ve honestly been at this for a while now and I’ll be honest and say I’ve other things to do and trust you can look them up if you’re so inclined blobsmile

@it_wasnt_arson @wolfie >what if didn't have anyone in charge?

then what committee will stop Elon Bezos from building the Gas Guzzler 9000 that 1,000,000 people are too stupid to not buy.

@wolfie ancaps are a joke and if you think capitalism arises naturally from inherent human tendencies then you're so soaked in propaganda that nothing I say now will help anyway. Just think about it.

@it_wasnt_arson In small groups, people tend to be more cooperative. Once societies cross a certain barrier, which is admittedly less a hard line and more a fuzzy zone, they tend to shift towards more complex economic models. In other words, people work for their own benefit. Be it in the form of money, education, experience, or even just simply food. That’s true throughout history, or would you say that you’d be happy to work for your fellow man for nothing in return but his thanks? Forever?

@wolfie @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this since the data I've seen differs

@jookia @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson That’s fair. I’ll be honest and say I can’t do the debate justice at the moment anyway haha

@hushroom @wolfie the workers who can no longer be fired for spitting in his face when he doodles a trapezoid on a piece of paper and tells them to make a pickup truck that looks like a gaming mouse

@it_wasnt_arson @hushroom Great, so they can’t be fired. On the other hand, that also means no one can make anyone give them anything. So, with no one in charge and no working economy… How is that going to work again?

@wolfie I'd be happy to take care of people however I can in a world where I would also be taken care of by others

@it_wasnt_arson The world you speak of does not, and will not exist. People will likely be kind and generous to others, up to a point. However, there is unquestionably a point where they can and will nope out and take care of themselves and their people. It is at that point that either there is a benefit for them to continue, or nope out they will.

So, again, why would they?

Still doesn't apply to most western countries

And you got it wrong my dude, it's backwards, the places that have it worse are the ones with state actions on behalf of the workers

Socialist economies rule over and the successful and the provider of goods in place of the masses that do not produce goods or income (at a national scale) which if you take to the logical conclusion or look up countries that do what you said will lead you to impoverished nations that can be characterized by debt, lacking personal/economical freedoms, lacking infrastructure, underdeveloped society, etc

Socialist economies ruling for the masses are socially and economically unviable, they are a spiral of degeneration that only result in social/economical collapse or the stablishment of a dictatorship

Source: I live there

@mewmew @wolfie

@wolfie @mewmew @jookia @Elfie With the advent of fracking, peak oil has been pushed back to the point that if we reached it, we would have enough CO2 in the atmosphere to cause a runaway cloud albedo chain reaction, entirely stripping the earth of stratocumulus cloud cover, melting the ice caps enough to flood coastal population centers and making large portions of the earth entirely uninhabitable as heat waves destroy crops and heatstroke threatens New Yorkers in spring.

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @mewmew

Source: I live there

It’s a frequently, albeit not universal, thing that those who live with such systems are the least likely to sing its praises and those that have yet to taste its.. fruits.. sing and sing laughing_cirno

@Elfie "completely impossible"

So you have no idea but like to sound smart while saying complete bullshit

Figured you out so quick, was fun though elfie

@Elfie And capitalism doesn't

@it_wasnt_arson give context or otherwise I can't make sense of your one liners

And capitalism isn't except of unfairness, my point is that you're being contrarian because you're a silly cunt elfie

@wolfie @mewmew @jookia @Elfie A world in which we burn all the oil we can extract would mean the end of human civilization, probably the human species entirely, and a mass extinction not seen in 55 million years. It would transcend the notion of an environmental disaster to become a paleontological disaster, a permanent scar on the fossil record of the Earth and on all life on it.

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @mewmew Okay, this was interesting but I really need to go do some other things haha

I’ll check back and see what you’ve come up with later blobsmile Have fun

But why climate change?

Do mention that the for the billionaire to remain in power it needs people to be educated, feed and wealthy not only to fuel it's economy but to fuel their production

Does he does it because he's a good person? No he certainly isn't

It happens because capitalism needs it, it's a key part of it functioning, the well being of other humans is needed for it to exist

Communism does not need any of that

@wolfie @mewmew @it_wasnt_arson

Is this a reply to putting politics in a historical context?...

@it_wasnt_arson @wolfie

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie @jookia Climate change is profitable in the short run at the expense of negative long term externalities, but those externalities don't show up on the quarterly progress report, and executives get paid to make number go up

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie The notion that history happened to have figured everything out just fine around about the time you were born is awfully convenient if you don't want to have to change anything significant about the world

@Elfie If you want to minimize human suffering, minimize human suffering rather than maximizing profit, because profit often tends to come with human suffering

Without profit there is nothing but misery

Aka communism, capitalism is good because a key element of it is that it needs people to not suffer in order to function as a system

No other model can achieve its scope while reducing misery at the same time

Yeah, that's my point

I don't advocate for my ideas romantically or anything I understand the suffering and shortcomings

But I also understand that there are far worse nightmarish alternatives

That's my stand in most things blobsip
@mewmew @it_wasnt_arson

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @wolfie no? I'm saying that an argument from tradition doesn't hold here, "it's this way right now" doesn't mean it's the best it could be.

You're using an example than once again is not applicable to most of the capitalist nations

And better yet you contradict and misunderstand by denying that the people is the market, without the market the company doesn't exist, it cannot go against the people because that's just not how capitalism works, that's communism

And in the attempt to perpetuate your misbegotten ideology you completely bypass the ideas and basis of democracy and the legislative powers that are a key element of capitalist nations

In other words, you're full of shit commie

@wolfie @mewmew @jookia

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie @jookia Alright, so tell me, what happens when you get fired from Wal-Mart the week before rent is due, with no money left for groceries? You starve. Why do people work at jobs they hate, that wear down their body and soul for years? Because they're being coerced.

@wolfie @it_wasnt_arson

I'd call that syndicalism personally parts of it anyway.

I can't make sense of your one liners and anarchy radical bullshit

Go live in Chile you'll have a blast commie

Not for the most part of humanity, you're exaggerating problems

@wolfie @mewmew @it_wasnt_arson

@Elfie that and a whole lot of hard work by different people in different places over a period of decades, anti-racism, intersectional feminism, dismantling the gender binary, decolonization, etc, etc. I don't pretend to know the answers, but I think the people who do are out there and people will be able to solve their own problems better when freed from capitalist and state control.

So basically you're advocating for the destruction of society and then when the world is no more, solve every single problem of humanity, ok commie

Can you advocate for China any harder agent? You're making a wonderful job, your officer in command will proud

@xj9 @it_wasnt_arson Parts of it yes, that probably is a better term. blobsmile

@it_wasnt_arson @wolfie communism is the ultimate in political retardation

don't read the thread

@quaylessed wow im owned epic style

don't read the thread
@it_wasnt_arson history owned you bro

don't read the thread

@quaylessed simply epic... I can't believe they put peter griffin in fortnite

don't read the thread
@it_wasnt_arson it's not my fault collectivism is for morons. It has never worked once, at all, ever. Human nature makes it impossible. Don't get mad because your communist political screed is being rejected wholesale by people who call it out as dumb.

The media talks about oil scarcity but it's complete bullshit

There is enough oil for all us to die and for our children's to have children assuming all alternative energy and knowledge suddenly disappears of the earth

What they mean is the availability of cheap, quality oil, most reserves are expensive and the process required for refining much more complex and therefore expensive than current reserves

@jookia @it_wasnt_arson @mewmew

@it_wasnt_arson @Elfie @mewmew @jookia You seem to be trying to expand a micro case to the macro and using it to illustrate… what exactly? Yes, bad things happen in any system. It isn’t like in communism no one ended up broke and starved. Millions of dead would dispute that for sure

They aren’t coerced. Did someone put a gun to their head? Tell them they have to work here and nowhere else or.. something? No?

I’m sorry that sometimes people can only get crappy jobs. That sucks. What do you propose though? Everyone gets a wonderful life by way of the magic bottomless pot of money and resources?

@mister_monster but for them to be able to be corrupt somebody has to be able to bribe them. The root problem here is that some people have vastly more wealth than others, and this allows them to subvert the government to their own ends.

Democracy is fundamentally incompatible with unbounded financial inequality. A person like Bezos literally has more say than millions of people combined.

@Elfie @mewmew @wolfie @jookia I don't think anyone has seriously talked about oil scarcity since fracking, the real problem is climate change

don't read the thread

@quaylessed human nature is to pee pee poo poo

don't read the thread
@it_wasnt_arson and that's why it will fail again like it always does

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @jookia @mewmew I’ll be honest, running out or not I’d be thrilled if we got off fossil fuels in a logical and reasonable way as soon as possible. Pollution sucks. laughing_cirno

Sure commie, my big titty fox gf also agrees


@wolfie @mewmew @jookia

@wolfie @mewmew @jookia @Elfie I propose that because the resources literally exist to provide for the livelihood of huge numbers of people who do completely useless jobs, that we instead... not have them do those jobs and provide for them anyway, for a start? Dissolve businesses into worker-owned co-ops, if anything?

Yeah, it's really funny when people deny to my what I myself lived

It's like "sorry but your existence is not valid because I say so"

Like whaaaat elfie

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew

@wolfie @mewmew @jookia @Elfie And a lot of crappy jobs are crappy because bosses make them crappy, not because they're inherently unpleasant. Serving people food isn't necessarily unpleasant, but it definitely becomes unpleasant when you work 34 hours a week on a schedule computer-optimized to keep you as busy as possible all the time and you're not allowed to stand up for yourself when people scream and throw things at you because you forgot to put onions on their burger in the rush.

起来Qǐlái!! 不愿Búyuàn做zuò奴隶núlì的de人们rénmen!!
把Bǎ我们wǒmen的de血肉xuèròu,, 筑成zhùchéng我们wǒmen新的xīnde长城chángchéng!! 
起来Qǐlái!! 起来Qǐlái!! 起来Qǐlái!!
冒着Màozhe敌人dírén的de炮火pàohuǒ,, 前进qiánjìn!!
冒着Màozhe敌人dírén的de炮火pàohuǒ,, 前进qiánjìn!!
前进Qiánjìn!! 前进Qiánjìn!! 进Jìn!!

@wolfie @mewmew @jookia

Take care it was fun reading your posts! elfie

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew

@yogthos for them to be corrupt there has to be someone to bribe them? The people selling you out would otherwise be perfectly fine people without someone buying their influence?

We have a fundamental disagreement. I do not believe that the corrupt influence comes from money, I believe it comes from political power. I believe they would act out their corruption in other ways. Rather than take bribes they would just take by force. I believe history shows this to be true.

@Elfie Capitalism kills millions of people and is driving the world toward mass extinction and possibly the destruction of human civilization entirely



Qilai! Buyuan zuo nuli de renmen,

Ba women de xuerou zhucheng women xin de changcheng.

Zhonghua Minzu dao liao zui weixian de shihou,

Meigeren beipo zhe fachu zuihou de housheng.

Qilai! Qilai! Qilai!

@Elfie Maybe you should actually read what people are saying rather than looking for excuses to dismiss them out of hand, but I know I'm not going to convince you of anything anyway

Says the Communist guy whose nation is very popular with human rights elfie

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @jookia @Elfie I’ll be frank, good luck with that. The thing is, nothing is free. It’s a null concept. Literally doesn’t exist. If anyone claims anything is truly free, it’s only because they don’t understand how things actually work. The man was right, ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. Yes, resources exist. In the ground, in warehouses, in lakes and wherever else they do. However, they’re going to do exactly nothing without people or machines to do something with them. Whether it’s time, energy, resources or money, work needs doing. So, either you can get everyone to work for nothing (or whatever… someone.. gives them) or.. nothing happens. That’s where these types of systems tend to break down. They try and fly in the face of physical reality, human nature, or both.

Let us pretend that we did as you suggest. We dissolve all the businesses and now the workers own them. Great. Thing is, most businesses don’t make things that are overly useful to themselves. They make them for trade. So, they can’t directly feed themselves with these things so I guess it’s back to trade. I still need to get some things done, so I’ll skip a bunch of steps and just say “Oh, hey look at that, we’re back to needing a functioning economy”.

There are reasons that communist countries eventually throw in the towel and switch to capitalism. There are reasons why the drivers of the future are not communist societies. There are reason that the future, as it were, was invented in the West. You want to lift millions out of poverty. Good. That’s a good thing. Know what has been proven to do that again and again? Capitalism. It isn’t always pretty. It isn’t perfect. It doesn’t work for everyone in every situation. It doesn’t even result in the same result for every person. But, history won’t be denied.

The idea of everyone being happy and having what they want and all the rest is an alluring and temping concept. It’d be nice if some day we get to the point technologically where we can get closer and closer to that. I don’t reasonably foresee it any time soon though. Even in the Federation, someone still has to scrub the plasma vents and funny enough, they never do answer why anyone would be a waiter. Yet, they still have them, don’t they? thinking_cirno

There is a difference between trying to maintain a positive balance and trying to destroy civilization my dude elfie

@mewmew @wolfie

@mister_monster the people selling you out wouldn't be in office in the first place otherwise. Who do you think got them in there in the first place exactly?

The rich are the ones funding their campaigns, playing ads for them in the media, and bribing them.

And you don't have to take my word on it, here's what actual research shows

@it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @jookia @Elfie Yeah, agreed. Some jobs wouldn’t be so awful if the people running the place weren’t, well, awful. That’s part of the price of a five dollar burger though. Not overly happy with it myself

@it_wasnt_arson @Elfie @jookia @mewmew Okay, off to get more things done. Have fun :)

@Elfie When you spend time with your friends and share a pizza, who profits?Profit is fueled by misery, by stealing the product of others' labor, by bending others' will to your own. Happiness is happiness, and it comes from having your needs met by people who care about you.

Happiness comes from the pizzeria making a better pizza to remain relevant and profitable

Happiness comes from my friend getting a promotion because he's good at what he does

Happiness comes from having the nation strive to offer better services so they remain popular and profitable

My mother can't produce energy to fuel civilization, dad can't feed an entire civilization and keep me and my friends healthy with ever increasing quality

You know what does? Capitalism, without happiness it cannot exist

@yogthos in a democracy someone gets elected. Without money for funding campaigns people still get elected. Are you telling me those elected people would never be corrupt because their campaigns weren't paid for by wealthy people? That the only reason we elect corrupt individuals is campaign funding? Corrupt people are attracted to positions of power, I don't believe for a second that eliminating the money rather than the position of power would eliminate corruption in government

@Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @jookia @mewmew @wolfie
ge ge go ga you ge ge go ga de go ge

They work at Walmart because they aren't resourceful enough to be better, society rewards the successful in order to ever strive towards a better, wealthier future

Is someone capable but sometimes unfairly treated? Yes, but the coin the system trades is talent not cruelness like your beloved CCP

And you know what? Most people is happy with what they do because they can choose without being coerced because capitalism thrives in freedom of choice, you're cherry picking and you can't even do it well elfie

@mewmew @wolfie @jookia

@Elfie The insults at the end of literally every single post are getting kind of old, cucumber

@Elfie Funny that you mention Chile, where the US helped orchestrate a coup that replaced a democratically elected socialist president with a notoriously brutal fascist dictator who destroyed the economy and employed secret police to kidnap and murder political enemies and has a not insignificant online presence as part of a meme about murdering communists

Lol, absolutely wrong

Who's trying to currently overthrow the government, destroy the nation's asset and coin? The United States? Bahahwha elfie

@Elfie Can you like... literally imagine a state of affairs other than America or China taking over the world

No, because I see things for how they are

I've got a minimal understanding of politics Which you lack elfie

@mister_monster I'm telling you that it's much easier to have checks and balances in a society where some people don't own billions time more wealth than others. I'm not sure what part of that you're having trouble with to be honest.

Whatever other sources of corruption you might have, capitalism is clearly a major contributor to the problem. No solution is possible without addressing capitalism first.

@wolfie @it_wasnt_arson

i wasn't super awake when i wrote that blob_grinning_sweat

syndicalism at least has a chance of working. there's a clear path from "free" markets to a mostly worker-owned economy that can evolve further based on more explicit consensus than indirect market "voting". i think working towards more democratic economic entities is a good thing. corporations are not nice beings and i'd rather we go with something else (hopefully more empathic/friendly/whatever) that's still compatible with the extant economic system.

Socialism strives to do that and it only caused the complete collapse of the industry, society and culture

So advocating for equality outside of capitalism is advocating for the above elfie

@it_wasnt_arson @jookia @mewmew

@yogthos @wolfie @mewmew
As opposed to all the communist countries where poor people are eating dirt while oligarchy is living in golden palaces with own zoo? Dude, I totally agree that this Amazon situation is wrong, but first of all this is not capitalism, this is bribery, and second, you always ruin even your good posts by going totally nuts and drawing unfounded conclusions, putting everything that's bad in the world on one pile and then labeling it "capitalism". That's not how it works.

@hushroom I'm still thinking about this. I'm still blown away by how it's possible to *not get it* this hard.

sorry ill try to become more enlightened

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew

Seeing how I actually lived in USSR myself, I'll tell you that it was far more equal than any capitalist country I know. Everybody had access to things like healthcare, housing, education, and public transit.

Meanwhile, people like Gates and Bezos didn't exist, and all the leaders of USSR came from regular people many were born in villages. This was possible because USSR provided basic services to all citizens.

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew and here's an actual comparison of quality of like for you

@yogthos I'm having no trouble understanding, I just think you're wrong. And I do not believe that eliminating capitalism would better the problem at all. I believe history shows that. The source of the problem is the position of power, without capitalism you'd have the powerful acting on their own behalf rather than as mercenaries on behalf of others. Eliminating the position of power eliminates the problem entirely, that's better than any theoretical major contributor.

If only oil wasn't so utterly fucking efficient, it's ridiculous!

@it_wasnt_arson @jookia @mewmew

Flexing much? I'm from a post-communist country and I know people who got killed or their relatives killed by the communist regime just for reading a "wrong book", singing a "wrong song" or listening to a "wrong radio". Also, I'm now living in Vietnam, where poor people are eating dirt and oligarchy is living in golden palaces

@wolfie @mewmew

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew plenty of people were killed by capitalist regimes, ask people in Bolivia, Chile, or Lebanon how they feel.

This whole bad things that happen under communism are rooted in communism, while same things happening under capitalism are anything but is a really sad argument.

And I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that when a country has an oligarchy it's not actually communist. I know it's a wild concept that you can just declare something without doing it.

yes, here is a comparison: Purchasing power across Europe. Can you still see the iron curtain? 30 years after it fell?

@wolfie @mewmew

@xj9 @wolfie I think it's important on top of that to continue to search for ways we can improve society as a whole, moving beyond markets in the long run, but that's probably a good first step

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew not really a measure of anything useful. Bezos alone has more purchasing power than most people in US combined, doesn't help the rest of them any.

@priryo Back to feudalism, except there's actually no monarch, aristocracy, or church. The merchant guilds run everything.


@chebra @wolfie @mewmew meanwhile, you also seem to be confusing communism with totalitarianism

@emacsomancer @priryo we live in a dystopia

that's a huge limb ;-) because communism as an ideology directly prescribes the existence of an oligarchy, while capitalism directly fights it by giving anyone the chance to grow

@wolfie @mewmew

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew well apparently you have no clue what the world communism means either, not surprised


Look at someone who doesn't know how purchasing power works

@wolfie @mewmew

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew look at someone who thinks they're being real clever


So where is the "communism without totalitarianism" you speak of? We do have some examples of communist countries, but they all somehow mysteriously turned into totalitarian.

@wolfie @mewmew

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew actually they all got stomped out by US and NATO last I checked, but I guess knowing anything about actual history would be too much to expect from you. Might want to read up on the history of Vietnam sometime while you're at it.

@yogthos OK, well I'd say that there's no way you have any idea what I know and understand from just this back and forth, I'm not going to learn much history from a twitter thread and if your response to a disagreement is that I am somehow ignorant I'd say you haven't spent a whole lot of effort learning what those that disagree with you believe or why they believe it.

@mister_monster you can read the actual study linked in the twitter thread, since it's paywalled I linked to the thread that gives the highlights


"Poor good communism, never got the chance, it's the CIA fault again!"
I heard that before. You should really start working for KGB, you seem to have a very good insight into what other secret services are doing.

So if the NATO stopped the good communism, why did they let exist the bad communism in North Korea, Cuba, Russia, China... ? Is it because the NATO is so bad they only let the bad examples exist to prove their point?

@wolfie @mewmew


And Vietnam currently has much bigger problems with China, who is trying to steal some of their islands.
Don't even get me started on the Vietnam war, I have plenty of bad things to say about US. Just none of them makes communism as a regime come out as a better option.

@wolfie @mewmew

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew you just asked where non-totalitarian communism wen to and I answered, now you're surprised that countries CIA didn't manage to destroy are militant. That's the level of "logic" we're dealing with here?

And while we're at it, why don't we talk about all the people NATO killed and enslaved in the past few decades. Since you're advocating for capitalism here, how do you reconcile that?

Exactly, we are talking about communism vs capitalism in the context of Amazon, why bring NATO or any other army into it? It simply has no relevance. If you want to compare deaths, let's compare communist deaths vs capitalistic deaths (which I'm sure you will conflate with all the deaths, then label them with "capitalism" because that's what we have now)

@chebra because NATO is what allows multinationals to exploit countries all over the world.

Let's look at Bolivia as a recent example. US overthrew the government when they wanted to nationalize lithium. Now their new puppet government will give lithium away to multinational corps instead. That's how imperialism works.

The people of Latin America, South Asia, and Middle East are all victims of capitalist imperialism.

@chebra claiming that this has no relevance to Amazon is either height of intellectual dishonesty or nativity. You tell me which.

@yogthos Do you think it will change my mind?

Your supposition, "any learned person would agree with me, therefore of they disagree they must be ignorant" is a common belief. You can probably guess that I feel the same way about what I believe. Calling someone ignorant accomplishes nothing, other than protecting oneself from having to try to understand the other point of view. That's why I don't do it.

There's nothing for me to learn from that thread. Your agitation is showing.

@mister_monster honestly I don't care, you have access to the same information I do, and if you choose to believe what you believe there's likely nothing I can say to change your mind anyways

@yogthos Are you saying that NATO forced Amazon to close those tax deals? Impressive.

Look, how about this, let's leave the history events, because we cannot change them now and we would be just arguing about wrong implementations. Let's talk about the ideas itself. Without giving them names. I'll kick off by saying that I think it's better to "treat people equally" as opposed to "making people equal". Simply because "being equal" can be unfair in the case when the effort invested wasn't equal.

@chebra I think treating people equally has to start with democratic distribution of resources and allocation of work.

Work under capitalism is allocated based on the whims of people who own the capital. I think it would be far better to allocate work based on the needs of the society at large.

I also don't think that any real equality is possible when some people own billions of times more wealth than others.

And when basic needs aren't provided unconditionally, work is just wage slavery.

@chebra no, I'm saying that NATO is a tool of oppression that the West uses to subjugate third world countries so that companies like Amazon are able t exploit them. Are you seriously having trouble grasping how this works?

@hushroom I'm sorry, that was mean. I was in a contrarian mood, and I think I'd be able to have a better conversation some other time

@it_wasnt_arson its fine to be mean, i made my point in a shitposty manner too. if you'd like to continue a conversation later, id like to reconcile how you simultaneously suppress human nature to Keep Up with the Joneses, without having an authority to regulate the activity with laws, or complete control of the media and only allow propaganda/advertising declaring "how sexy it is to share one fuel efficient car with your whole neighborhood and mostly use bicycles and public transportation"

@yogthos well we can finally agree on something.

@yogthos @chebra @mewmew

Hahahahahhahahahahaha… sorry, earlier I was accused of being too deep in the propaganda but this is just rich. Then do explain the politburo and such. Do explain why, as I believe I said to you earlier, Yeltsin had his faith in communism destroyed by a bloody common supermarket. But yeah, it was great.

@yogthos @chebra @mewmew

Any communist country that’s an unequal hell hole is clearly not a communist country. Convenient that.

@yogthos @chebra @mewmew Doesn’t make them any poorer either. @chebra ‘s point still stands

@yogthos @chebra @mewmew Probably because communism leads to or requires totalitarianism 100% of the time. Or will you just say that any country which has such isn’t “true” communism and therefore gets a pass? thinking_cirno

"Has to start" but how do you achieve the "democratic" (did you mean equal?) distribution of resources? That's simply an impossible wish.

And yes, in capitalism, people can decide for themselves what they do with their own property, if they give it to someone in exchange for their services or not. That's a good thing.

@wolfie @mewmew @chebra yeah, I mean how can I possibly argue with that logic. I wonder what capitalism leads to every time though...

@wolfie @mewmew @chebra yeah it actually does, I guess you don't understand the concept of having finite resources

@chebra @yogthos @mewmew

So if the NATO stopped the good communism, why did they let exist the bad communism in North Korea, Cuba, Russia, China… ? Is it because the NATO is so bad they only let the bad examples exist to prove their point?

Obviously they did, no? laughing_cirno

@wolfie @mewmew @chebra sounds like you're describing capitalist countries here. Last I checked 1% of the population owns over half the wealth, but please do tell me more about inequality under communism. 😂

@wolfie @mewmew @chebra congratulations, this is literally the dumbest thing I read today

@wolfie @mewmew @chebra the amount of ignorance required to think that this is a good argument is astounding


Like.. in North Korea, Cuba, Russia, Venezuela, Vietnam... the only reason you don't read every day about their 1% and how much they own is because they assasinate each journalist that tries to ask about that.

@wolfie @mewmew

@yogthos @mewmew @chebra No, it doesn’t. We’re not talking about piles of gold in a big McDuckian vault here. We’re talking the more nebulous concept of ‘wealth’ in an economy with a fiat currency. A Bezos or Gates having X does not make anyone else more poor. That’s fundamentally not how this works.

I think we’re likely done here to be honest

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew or like in US, Chile, Lebanon, Iraq, Spain, France, UK?

@yogthos @mewmew @chebra Increased standards of living to levels unseen in human history? Technological advancements day after day?

Yeah, real terrible things. -.-

Well? We are reading about it, aren't we?

@wolfie @mewmew

@wolfie @mewmew @chebra hilariously absurd. Of course Gates or Bezos hoarding money makes the country poorer. The sheer stupidity of thinking otherwise is impressive. Yeah we're done here.

@chebra @mewmew This is pointless. The previous fellow in the thread seemed to actually have a clue. While I didn’t agree with him, well.. he seemed to at least have a clue about reality. This is going in circles now. I think it’s gone as far as it can

@chebra @wolfie @mewmew we've been reading about it for the past 50 years, and during that time the inequality only got worse across the board. Knowing that a boot is stomping on your face doesn't make it any more pleasant does it?


Aaah, now I understand why you hate capitalism. Because you think this is a zero-sum game... Also you think they are "hoarding"

@wolfie @mewmew


Better than a boot stomping on your face that's telling you everything is fine and you are "equal" and if you try to complain you will disappear.

@wolfie @mewmew

I like how this thread died immediately, while the other threads with personal insults discussing things that did or didn't happen in past generations are still growing. Seems you are more interested in discussing past events than the ideas that may drive our future - which we can actually do something about.

@chebra sorry missed it, and don't see what specifically is impossible. USSR allocated resources far more democratically for example. However, that was just state run capitalism.

Personally, I think that companies should be replaced with worker owned cooperatives. This way the workers decide what they work on, how they work, and share profits equally.

And no, people can't decide anything for themselves under capitalism when the choice is to work or starve on the street.

@chebra unless basic services such as food, shelter, healthcare, and education are provided for all unconditionally you just have wage slavery that's no different from feudalism.

A choice to work or starve on the street is fundamentally a false choice.

@chebra meanwhile the only thing capitalism is driving is the extinction of complex life on this planet, humanity included

@chebra I also love how you actually thought that you constructed some unassailable argument here that I simply couldn't come up with a response to as opposed to me simply missing your reply 😂

Lol, far more democratically? Again, we are talking about historic events, but USSR extracted resources from the soviet countries, I know, we were one of them.


Honestly, if companies were replaced by worker owned cooperatives I wouldn't be mad at all. The problem is that it has been tried before and it almost always ends up in a variant of the tragedy of the commons. And since that is the reality, I prefer to have a company with a director with shareholders and employees, then I can decide for myself if I want to become the shareholder.


"Work or starve" is the reality of the life. We only work if we want to have money. There are plenty of other ways to obtain money (start a company, hire workers) and also to live without money (go to a country where your savings will cover all the expenses), but only if you have the basic rights of free movement and the legal right to start a company, which you do in capitalism, but don't under communism.

@chebra the quality of life across USSR was far more even than it is in US right now. Meanwhile, even the poor people in US are far better off than people in slaving away in third world countries to support their lifestyles.

@chebra once again you're just saying things like they're facts when they're demonstrably false. There are plenty of successful coops out there, Mondragon being a great example

Furthermore, worker co-ops are more productive, last longer, and get thru recessions better than capitalist, top-down firms

Facts are not on your side here I'm afraid.


>"Work or starve" is the reality of the life.

It's only reality of life for people who are born poor because capitalism is a birth lottery. If you're born rich then you don't have to work a day in your life, and you live off the labor of those you exploit. If you're born poor then working to subsidize the lifestyle of those born luckier than you is the reality of life.

This is what you're ultimately advocating for.

You are falling for the survival bias. Try comparing the number of coops that succeeded and the number of coops that failed.

@chebra majority of traditional companies fail

Agree, majority of coops also fail.

@chebra and unless you can demonstrate the coops fail statistically more frequently you don't actually have any point here, and we can move on

Which we cannot, same as you cannot statistically demonstrate that they fail less frequently, because nobody tracks the data. Not because it's false. I'm just pointing out that saying that companies fail doesn't invalidate my point that tragedy of commons exists.

@chebra I actually linked you a reference discussing a study that shows that coops survive 29 percent longer, they’re more productive, and they weather recessions better. Here it is again since you conveniently ignored it


Communism is a much stronger birth lottery. But with rights that allow you to study, become proficient and break the chain of your poor ancestors, you can actually make it. Under communism if your father once offended a government official your whole family is either dead or denied from every school, every job, punished for just appearing on the streets. Again, I know people who suffered such fate.

@chebra quite the opposite I'm afraid, all soviet leaders rose from regular people, many, like Khrushchev, were born on farms. The reason is due to them having actual equal opportunity.

Also rather hilarious you're making this argument in face of Chelsea Manning being in solitary confinement while Snowden exiled in Russia.

What does Manning and Snowden have to do with any of this? Again, you are pulling unrelated events into a discussion about ideas.

The audacity of bringing up Manning and Snowden while every single opposition candidate against Putin got jailed or assassinated! Seriously? How about sending spies with Novichok to kill people in other countries?

"Equal opportunity" as long as you just agree with the boss and don't ask any questions.

@chebra seeing how you'd be working in a cooperative that you own I don't follow where the problem lies

@chebra you're claiming that dissidents are prosecuted under communism more harshly than under capitalism. I'm noting two people famous for being prosecuted for being dissidents in a capitalist regime.

You might want to look up what the word related means if you're going to keep using it.

On the other hand, Putin is completely unrelated since Russia is a capitalist oligarchy right now. You seriously didn't know that Russia isn't communist?! 😂

One thing is a dissident, another thing is an alternative opinion about how the country should be ran. Again, I think we should have multiple choices and let the voters pick what they prefer, not killing everybody who differs from the current leader. And while I'm fully siding with Snowden, his case is very different from Alexey Navalny and Boris Nemtsov. Snowden should be the exception from the rule that publishing secret materials is forbidden. But Nemtsov? Now that's totalitarianism

@chebra I don't think democracy is possible in a country where some people have vastly more wealth than others.

The rich fund campaigns, own the news, and create lobby groups. US is a perfect example of a country that's a democracy on paper, but an oligarchy in practice.

Once again, are you still trying to claim that Russia is communist right now?

Seems to me like you're unable to argue in good faith here. Have a good day.

Same way democracy cannot exist in a country without plurality of opinions.

Rich may fund campaigns all they want, but I'm free to not listen to them. Sure, many other people will still fall for it, but that's one of the downsides of democracy. As long as I'm allowed to chose, I'm willing to live with this downside. If I ever want to do something about it, I may start educating them. Under communism I wouldn't be allowed to.

Our topic is communism vs capitalism, not US vs Russia.

@chebra we ban plenty of opinions in every society, for example racism is pretty universally considered unacceptable. I think that having a birth lottery to decide who works and who doesn't is equally unacceptable.

Once again, a capitalist democracy is democratic on paper only

The only thing you can't choose under communism is to exploit others for personal benefit, and I see that as a positive.

And without capital you only get to choose your master under capitalism.

@chebra and if the topic is capitalism vs communism, then I don't know why you keep judging communism on past mistakes as opposed to the way it's supposed to work in its ideal. Any problem you can point to that happened under communism I can point to happening under capitalism.


We ban practicing racism, not talking about it. It's just proven to be wrong. That's a big difference from shooting opposition candidates on the streets.

You are just quoting examples of US democracy, which you yourself said. and I agree, is not very good. Doesn't change anything about capitalism vs communism.

There are plenty things you are forbidden to do under communism, especially the USSR version of it. Such as listening to Simon and Garfunkel.


You keep judging capitalism on past mistakes of US specifically. Not even once have you shown any problem with the capitalist ideology in it's ideal form, you always just show an example of a past event. While I've shown you examples of unfair balance (forcefully equalizing unequal
people) under ideal communism.


> I think that having a birth lottery to decide who works and who doesn't is equally unacceptable.

I wholeheartedly agree! Nothing is stopping you from learning from available free resources, then getting accepted in a school of your choice, then demonstrating skills during your job interview, accumulating savings, starting your own company etc etc.. While under communism, you'd simply be denied from all schools no matter how good you are if your father was against the regime.

@mewmew @wolfie @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson
> fake studies published by large corporation
This is not part of the education system

> underfunded education system with a biased curriculum
Education systems are literally useless and would not change anything even if you unbiased it.

@yogthos I smell bribes

@Mikoto @mewmew @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @wolfie The education system is a core part of how we gain knowledge and ideas, and learn how to synthesize new ideas. Just as the education system teaches you that F=ma, the education system teaches you about climate change. You can’t say that what’s taught has no effect. A great part of it may be irrelevant or useless, but we tend to keep even irrelevant and useless knowledge.

don't read the thread

@quaylessed Here's the thing:
None of this actually fucking matters for the story. So it was all cut out. There was a fifteen second pair of lines where the nerd guy explained about Unobtainium. They got cut. Over a century of worldbuilding about Earth may as well have never been there. They created all, all, all this supporting material to make their weird fantasy Pocahontas-in-the-sky story make sense. Every single nagging question you could possibly have about anything in

don't read the thread

@quaylessed the setting has been answered, for better or worse, in someone's pile of notes and a shitty cash-in lore dump book. All of that supporting material was neatly and completely cut out to focus on eye candy and plot.

Of course, the plot is almost impressively forgettable, entirely composed of cribbed notes bleached of all character and painted blue. Eye candy never ages well. So the one genuinely interesting part of the effort put into the movie, which they're sti

don't read the thread

@quaylessed ll desperately trying to market, was never even set up to be marketed in the first place. It's great in the short term - Deep lore is life for diehard fans, but doesn't bring people to the box office - but now the novelty has run out, and there's nothing to replace it. So here we have new novelty, this time throwing half the worldbuilding out the window to try to write a literal theme park into a narrative where it really, really doesn't belong. Flimsy, creepy, s

don't read the thread

@quaylessed ometimes outright offensive excuses for fucking up the most basic and originally shitty metaphor for racist colonialism abound. Hooray.

I guess it's just one more example of how even the most shallow and milquetoast anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, or anti-corporate themes in media cannot survive contact with any major media company. Like all the boring, declawed adaptations of dystopian novels weren't enough.

@chebra if you have to work for a living you're automatically disadvantaged. You have to spend 40 hours a week doing work just to live. Then you have to spend time and energy on top of that to use these free resources, and improve your skills or whatever. Meanwhile, a person born rich can just do whatever they like.

On top of that, you don't get the same connections as a rich person, and luck ends up being the dominant factor.

@chebra and of course nobody is proposing a form of communism that would deny people anything. You're just using a straw man argument here.

@chebra no, I'm judging it on its long history starting with Victorian times. Capitalism is a pyramid scheme that requires a large pool of poor people to support the lifestyle of a few rich people. This problem is inherent in the system.

Meanwhile, you've just been referencing what USSR did and claiming that problems of USSR are inherent in communism.

No forced equalizing is required for communism to function. You just make things up and state them as facts.

@chebra you're complaining about totalitarianism and not communism here

Am I though? You say capitalism is bad because Amazon did something wrong, yet it's a strawman if I point out that every single communist regime we ever saw in this world ended up in people getting denied schools and jobs based on whether they were loyal to communism or not.

@chebra no, I say capitalism is bad because it's a system that's designed to accumulate capital in the hands of the few. This leads to inequality that's at odds with democracy because some people end up with vastly more resources than others.

Amazon is just a symptom of the problem that exists in every single capitalist society.

@chebra and even if we buy your argument, I would much rather live in a society that denies things to people who are actively working against it, as opposed to one denying things based on whether somebody was born rich or not.

So you'd rather live in a society where anyone who has a different opinion than a committee at the top of the society will be considered as "working against society" and thereby denied access to basic resources. I mean... you just described the thing I was most worried about. Only now you admitted that it's ingrained in the idea of communism itself, not just a wrong implementation.

Capitalism doesn't deny things to people who were not born rich - proof: me.

@chebra again this is a straw man argument because literally nobody is advocating for this here.

I've never suggested or admitted that this is an ingrained idea in communism. You just keep repeating it like a mantra.

However, if I absolutely had to choose then yes I would prefer that to capitalism.

And what exactly are you a proof of do you think?

All right, I give up, tell me what communism is then. Because I see such committee and dissidents getting denied access in every existing regime that calls themselves "communist". If communism as an ideology doesn't lead to such committee, then in practice it very much does, but go ahead and tell me what the real communism does about people who just want to work more, thereby earn more, and have the freedom to decide what to do with their own property.

@chebra I already told you, it's about ensuring that the resources and work are allocated in a way that benefits majority of people in society. It's about providing basic needs for everyone unconditionally. And it's about having worker ownership of businesses.

What you're advocating is for freedom to exploit other people for your personal benefit. And I disagree that such a freedom is desirable.

@chebra your whole argument is basically that as long as you're personally happy it's ok for other people to suffer to support your lifestyle.

Oh come on, why are you accusing me of something like that? That's a strawman if I've ever seen one. I just want to work above average, and expect to get above average reward. How is that exploiting anyone? Giving me average reward for my above average effort would be exploitation.

I still don't understand how do you want to "ensure that resources are allocated in a way that benefits majority" - are you suggesting to exploit some minority to take their resources and give it to the majority?

@chebra you said yourself repeatedly that you prefer capitalism, and that's a birth lottery. So, you actively advocate for a lottery system to decide who works and who doesn't.

This whole work above average argument doesn't hold water in practice. Plenty of poor people work much harder than you, and they don't become rich. Truck drivers are a great example of this.

@chebra I explained multiple times, by having worker ownership of businesses. What part of that are you struggling with?

I prefer capitalism exactly because it ISN'T a birth lottery. And you still didn't give me any reason to believe otherwise.

And those poor people who work hard are obviously working on a wrong thing. It doesn't matter how many resources you have if you don't use them wisely: This is why many poor people (not all) are poor. Truck drivers included, automated trucks are almost here, so any truck driver not seeking another skill is simply foolish.

@chebra ok gotcha, you prefer capitalism because you don't understand how capitalism works.

Have a good day.

I'll show you the problem with forced worker ownership - say I start a small business first by myself. I'm diligent, responsible, careful, therefore my business grows and soon I need some helping hands. If I have to promise a share of my company to any unskilled worker, what happens if that worker turns out to be lazy and I need to fire him? Would you exploit me by letting him keep the share of my company, or would you confiscate his share?

@chebra I love how you're arguing about this like it's some hypothetical scenario as if cooperatives didn't already exist.

You making absurd claims that are demonstrably false has been the theme for this whole thread.

That didn't answer my question. Not to mention, those cooperatives have the same dillema.

In capitalism you simply pay the worker immediately the appropriate amount his services were worth on that day until the day you don't need their services. That is fair.

@chebra there's nothing fair about that because the relationship between the worker and capital owner is inherently asymmetric.

In any case, it's pretty clear that there's no point continuing this argument.

We're not going to change each others minds here. And it's clear that our views are fundamentally incompatible.

Have a good one.

@chebra I did answer your question, take a look at how cooperatives actually work. This is not a hypothetical.

How is that asymmetric? The worker can tell me he doesn't want to provide his services at such price any more. He can find another place to sell his services, I can find another person providing those services. Fair, fair.

How should I (or anyone else) believe communism is the better system if you don't provide answers to these very obvious dilemmas? I think you yourself don't know how to solve them.

@chebra the worker is not in position of power because they need a job to live.

The quality of working conditions only needs to be better than not having work. When the society doesn't provide basic needs, the working conditions have to be just a bit better than starving.

How should I (or anyone else) take your seriously when you choose not to understand basic things like this?

They need "a" job. And only if they are not willing to find another non-job way to live (like growing their own food). Also, the employer needs workers, otherwise they can close the business as they will not be able to run it. The relationship is balanced both ways which is apparent when you look at some high skilled jobs.Companies are celebrating if they get at least one interviewee per month.But I guess you never saw this end of the spectrum because you only talk about unskilled jobs

@chebra I'm just curious, do you think you're making new and novel arguments here that nobody thought of before?

Do you really think that I haven't thought about this until now, and you're going to surprise me with some insight that I haven't yet considered?

No, I'm just trying to get the answers that no commie wants to give. You prefer to avoid the question, refer me to some dubious websites, rather than simply writing what you claim to know.

@chebra again, you completely ignored my point here.

People offering jobs have no incentive to provide good working conditions. All the person looking for a job has a "choice" of is one of the master they will serve.

The business owner gets to accumulate capital by exploiting the labor of the workers. Meanwhile, the workers only make enough money to keep them going. That's why it's called wage slavery. This is precisely how capitalism works in practice.

@chebra I've given you anwsers, and I've even provided you with research that supports them.

You just ignore what I say and continue to repeat nonsense.

@chebra also LMFAO Princeton and University of Massachusetts are dubious website now 😂

Again, that's simply untrue. It's only the case for workers who refused to increase their skills to match their peers, sure, those will have hard time finding a comfortable job, and that is fair.

People who invest in their skills to actually provide services that are valuable to someone have no problems dictating their own conditions to their bosses.

@chebra and we're back to birth lottery. People born rich don't have to do any of this, while people born poor have to work to support the rich, and then have to improve their skills and hope to become rich themselves.

And at best a poor person becomes a business over propagating the cycle of exploitation. It's like justifying slavery by saying that a slaves sometimes escape and get their own slaves. So, there's really no problem. 🤦‍♂️

WTF dude you are really fabricating your conclusions in incredible ways. When did I say rich people don't need to have skills? I mean if their parents were rich they must have had skills and I don't think any communist parent would refuse to support their own child. But without skills their wealth will be short lived.

The poor don't have to support the rich, what kind of nonsense is that? It's very simple, get something somebody else wants, they will exchange it for what you want.

@yogthos This is so fucked

@chebra I said that rich people don't have to have skills. Statistically you become rich by being born rich. Most people today are rich because their parents were rich. This is literally how generational wealth works.

The poor have to support the rich because they need to sell their labor to live. They sell their labor to people who own capital, who are already rich.

Have to be pretty dim not to be able to grasp this. The poor literally subsidize the lifestyle of the rich.

@qtd3n @Elfie @it_wasnt_arson @mewmew @wolfie
> Just as the education system teaches you that F=ma
That was mommy
The rest of my knowledge was from the internet and books.

@chebra it's absolutely hilarious that you keep accusing me of fabricating things while you've pulled every single argument you've made out of your ass.

You just state absurdity as fact. You've never provided any single reference to back it up, and you ignore the references to actual research that I've provided.

All in all you're a pretty bad troll.

@yogthos @chebra @wolfie @mewmew IMO, the issue is not so much about communism vs capitalism but rather authoritarianism (where the leader(s) can purge you at any moment or at least make your life hell) vs liberty.

@yogthos anarchocapitalism would have prevented this

So you deny the Chinese Communist party being communist but you also deny the U.S being capitalist

Wow I didn't know pleroma federated with different timelines and dimensions, Lain really outdid himself elfie

@mewmew @yogthos @wolfie

@Elfie @flussence @mewmew @wolfie @yogthos > Himself

excuse me nani the fuark

Lain is a dude, the selfies posted had that female filter from Instagram or whatever, or maybe they were joking and I didn't got it cus I'm a brick...

@flussence @mewmew @wolfie @yogthos

@Elfie @tA @flussence @wolfie @yogthos lain's a girl have you heard her voice it's so cute

@mewmew @Elfie @flussence @wolfie @yogthos .i .iu ti'i ro mi'o prami la .lein.

Bahahwha you have no idea what you're talking again elfie

You don't even bother to receive on site information by people yet claim to be all knowing

Tbh if you truly lived in the USSR and learned NOTHING of the very place you inhabited, then I think we're operating at high levels of retardation, comrade


@Mikoto @mewmew @yogthos @wolfie
Yes, comparing capitalism (economic system) with communism (political system) is not entirely correct, but I cannot imagine a fair setup of communism even on a small scale. The dilemmas with disowning property and rewarding inversely proportional to peoples effort is still in the ideology and I don't find it fair. Communism lets lazy people ride free on the shoulders of ambitious people.Favors lazines

@0x00 @yogthos Where in socialism do corporations exist?

@0x00 @it_wasnt_arson let me introduce you to US, France, UK, Iraq, Lebanon, Chile, or Bolivia
no, capitalism is where the corporation pays to lobby-in/out the laws that beneficial only to them.
like amazon. or monsanto. or any oil-centric establishment. oh, and dont forget guns.
i can see you put a lot of effort into your argument, so will not even dare to disprove it.

@0x00 @dym sounds like you could benefit from your own advice here

@0x00 @yogthos I have one simple question: Do the workers control the means of productiion?

@yogthos wow we're going all the way back to feudalism!