@mewmew 1) I believe the correct term is cis men, not cis male. Also trans men/women not trans male/female. 2) it's interesting that the overwhelming majority are males (well over 75%). And yes, this includes trans women since they are of the male sex. 3) it's terrifying that there are so many people who are either trans or confused about their gender. 4) This poll needed options for "I don't want to give my gender/age". Right now they'd be confused with people who picket others, who are likely of the "nonbinary", "otherkin" or other similar identities. 5) These kind of polls are very difficult to do right, and it would have been better to either do multiple posts, or better yet to a Google spreadsheet survey and link to that.
@mewmew Lmao terrible poll because nobody will agree on what trans and cis mean. Feminists who reject "cis" as a label will say "other" or not vote, some transwomen will pick "trans male" and some transmen "trans female", and so on.
Also holy moly is there a limit to the number of options you can provide? I bet its UINT64_MAX or something.
@mewmew@socjuswiz I answered "25-34 other". Not trying to be pedantic, I just reject the cis label. Since the poll is targeted towards a certain political viewpoint it will probably affect the results somewhat.
@socjuswiz guys its a demographic survey aimed at collecting information, and you know what mewmew is trying to convey. personally I prefer "trans woman" to "trans female" because it is less ambiguous for those thinking in terms of bio sex, but his terminology is the best to ensure maximum participation and y'all are just being autists carping over terminology. @kazuma@alex
As such, she would belong in the same category as a conservative woman who strictly adheres to traditional notions of femininity.
i mean yeah? like a nice cute boy with a penis and a serial rapist are the same gender, gender isn't any indication of political views or opinions
Another problem with the concept of cisgender arises when considering lesbian women, especially butch lesbians, for whom gender non-conformity feels natural.
While every woman can choose to disregard rules of femininity after coming to a political consciousness, some women, especially lesbians, might feel naturally repelled from feminine stereotypes, beginning in early childhood.
that's pretty lesbophobic ngl, but i'm guessing they're referring to getting a husband - which should be more clear
The concept of gender identity would have it that they are possibly transgender and as such not women, even though they might feel perfectly content with the word "woman" when stripped off of feminine stereotypes and limited to a non-sexist, scientific definition. Yet the concept of "cisgender" groups them together with women who find it easier to perform femininity, effectively erasing their unique experiences with regard to gender.
no one is saying that gnc people don't have unique experiences, black women have it different than hispanic women, women in china have it different than women in sweden. are they different genders too?
im a gnc male myself, that doesn't make me nonbinary. being labeled cis gender is just another descriptor and is worthless outside of trans discussions. it's just a hypothetical "do you have a penis/vagina?" "yes." "are you a boy/girl?" "yes." "you are cis gender." kind of thing, but if you have to think about those questions, then you may or may not be trans.
and yes, you're right, i didn't scroll up far enough to see that alex was supportive of this
@kazuma Lesbians frequently report that they've been actively repulsed from feminine rituals since childhood, and vice versa for gay men. I used to think this is just stereotyping until I realized it's a very well-acknowledged thing among the LGB community. There's also an interesting study showing a correlation between childhood gender non-conformity and later discovering one's homosexual identity.
Anyway, that's a tangent.
>no one is saying that gnc people don't have unique experiences, black women have it different than hispanic women, women in china have it different than women in sweden. are they different genders too?
You do realize that what you're saying essentially supports the position that "cis" is nonsensical, given that no two women on earth have the same experience of womanhood? The only thing unifying women in every culture on the planet is that they're born with female anatomy, not a "female gender identity" which would be very culture-bound.
The definitions of "cis woman" and "trans women" jointly rely on an underlying definition of a "female gender identity." Any definition of such a subjective or social/cultural identity will necessarily exclude some actual female-born women, who have no intention of being excluded from the definition of womanhood.
The only sensible universal definitions of womanhood and manhood are those based purely on mundane anatomic facts. It's what the words were meant to describe in the first place: the capacity to play one or the other role in the binary sexual reproduction system. The stereotypes and "identities" built on top should be dismantled, because they're ultimately harmful for everyone.
Background to establish there's no ill-will here: From what I can tell, you're a UK-feminism sort of guy. No qualms here—Riot Grrrl tracks are great, and the wave of feminism they're ripping off had some killer music festivals.
Since Kazuma is a female-to-male trans person, some of your ideological affiliation would say you just mansplained to the individual in question. Would you say this qualifies as sexism in some way? And how does your ideology reconcile the existence of people like Kazuma?
These are genuine questions: people of your particular makeup are not found very often, and I have no particularly-heavy stake in it, so I have many questions for them.
@kick Those are very tame questions. I expected something scary.
I assumed Kazuma was male (as in "AMAB"). If I knew their background I might have posted with a different tone, though I don't think I've been rude or have I? In any case, being born female obviously doesn't automatically give one an understanding of how sexism etc. works, and I always try to find a balance between clearly expressing my opinions (which are based on radical feminism) and not mansplaining.
If I understand it correctly, mansplaining refers to when a guy assumes a woman to know less about a topic because she's a woman, and proceeds to arrogantly talk over her. As such, the mere act of expressing a clear disagreement with a woman, even if on a topic like feminism, wouldn't fulfill the criteria.
That being said, there is this phenomenon where men in general seem to have a LOT of opinions on feminism, and women get tired of it since most of it is BS. If a woman shuts me down immediately just because I'm a male disagreeing with her and calls it mansplaining, I might slightly roll my eyes but I'll shut up and leave her alone, unless it's something that I'm extremely passionate about like prostitution abolitionism...
When you say "how does your ideology reconcile the existence of people like xyz" what exactly do you mean? If you mean what the radfem position is on why some female born people become FtM, there's a lot on that but I'm not sure if that's what you meant?
@daughter@mewmew I know I know... Google is the devil and all. But you won't see me deny when they do something well, when they offer a good product. And their spreadsheet online app has the best way of doing an online survey that is both easy to use able to adapt to however complex or simple you need the survey and it's even free.
If you know of any tool that is able to achieve the same things, let me know. I'd love to be able to replace Google Docs in this matter.
It's not free, it costs the freedoms of everyone that uses it. Like, I know I'm RMS levels autistic for cutting them as out of my life as possible, but I just find them truly horrifying -- you deserve better, it's a shame you don't have it.
@daughter@mewmew I try to avoid them as much as I can too. I was pretty happy when I managed to get microG working on an old rooted phone, to get rid of Google Play Services. But I'm not gonna be autistic about it. If they have a tool that is useful, and there are no similar alternatives, yeah, I might use it.
interestingly (to me at least) the demographics at the start of the poll were much higher for younger people, and for women (both trans or cis) - but as the poll spread around the percentage of men increased significantly.