@shebang @thor its time to shit up @mewmew 's server again.

analog is fun.

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Hum, for some reason, my instance isn’t loading the clip. Uh, let me try opening that on your insurance.

@thor @mewmew @shebang blobcatsurprised

although i uploaded it as an ogg so i dunno why its serving oga.

oga is some counterfit bullshit blobcatverifiedfake

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang I don’t think I’m gonna be able to play that on an iPhone...

@thor @mewmew @shebang my music is encapsulated in too much freedom for your slave OS to handle.

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Don’t wanna slave away trying to get janky stuff to work on Linux.

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Or PinePhone or whatever it is that’s hot these days.

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Ogg is an extremely rare format outside of FOSS circles, so it’s not exactly a big loss. You could always send me an ALAC file. That’s an Apple lossless format and is under the Apache license.

@thor @mewmew @shebang my mpc one (2020) emits ogg files blobcatupsidedown nobody not on a mac uses ALAC blobcatwaitwhat

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Also, did you know that DarwinOS, the basis of macOS and iOS, is open source? It even has a BSD mascot.

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Nobody who’s not a FOSS nerd uses Vorbis/Opus, sooo...

@thor @mewmew @shebang every discord call is opus ablobfoxhyperowo

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Granted, some games and such use it, because encoders/decoders are freely available...

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Doesn’t count if it’s under the hood, because then a nerd has used it 😛 Needs to be a conscious decision by a majority of its users to count.

@thor @mewmew @shebang i posted the wrong mp3.

i will now post the correct loser mp3 that has experienced patent expiration. blobcatoutage

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang I am very much a pragmatic when it comes to these things. FOSS fundamentalists are, well, fundamentalists.

@thor @mewmew @shebang the non-apple youtube users are also opus blobcatupsidedown

@thor @mewmew @shebang its really weird how prevalent xiph formats actually are but for some stupid reason apple/microsoft don't want to support it by default in their music players. i'm sure it has nothing to do with them both sitting on the patent pool for mpeg-4.

meanwhile half the internet audio traffic is running on xiph s e c r e t l y. blobcatwaitwhat

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Sure, it’s used internally in a lot of software because it’s the main codec available if you want something free. Strongly doubt they’re using it because it’s FOSS.

@thor @mewmew @shebang my point is if its good enough to run the internet why does it not just work in the damn music player

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Takes extra work to implement. Rarely requested feature. Hardly anyone refuses to use a media player because it doesn’t do Ogg.

@thor @mewmew @shebang firefox and chrome will play vorbises iirc. chrome i believe will play opus (because webm uses it, which google uses) i forget if firefox will. it's literally microsoft and apple sitting there with their butt cheeks held high like NO YOU CANT HAVE IT

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang So, much for the same reason that games often don’t bother with Linux ports

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Firefox because it has a horse on the FOSS side of the race. Google for the reason you mentioned, I guess. I mean, there isn’t an awful lot of reasons for supporting it. Browsers support relatively few formats in general.

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Not saying it’s a good thing. I mean, I always felt Vorbis degraded more gracefully than the other formats due to its use of noise to hide quantisation errors. Don’t know if they brought that over to Opus though

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang MP3 and other DCT based formats tend to sound like water when they degrade. Vorbis just sounds more aggressive in a way, which I like better.

@thor @icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Pretty sure there are third party players for Vorbis and Opus on iOS, I know for a fact there are libraries to do it because YouTube has a lot of their content exclusively in Opus and a lot of games (especially slightly older ones) tend to use either of Vorbis or WAV to store their background music

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang I think I’m gonna see if your file plays back on desktop. The damned thing still says Error.

@allison @icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Oh I bet there are... if I could get the damned file downloaded lol

@allison @icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Okay, on desktop now, and of course it plays back.

For lossy codecs, I prefer Opus but I just keep FLAC on desktop because archiving and MP3 on mobile because compatibility blobeyes

@thor @mewmew @shebang there was a whole knife fight at the W3C about this. they wanted audio and video tags in html5 to replace flash stuff with. but when it came time to ask what codecs should be supported, they debated the free ones should be baseline because they are both battle tested and don't put the net in a position of rewarding monopolists.

at first pocket players tried to support vorbis but were threatened by fraunhaufer who was butthurt that MP3 patents would be circumvented. android did support it later, i think other pocket players do now as well.

apple and microsoft screeched purely on self interest. they both receive money from M4A patents and so naturally, that's what they wanted the baseline to be. it was absolutely unworkable in their minds that multi billion dollar monopolists couldn't possibly support a player that was already written for them blobcatwaitwhat

W3C, being professional spineless cuckolds, gave up and went oh well you guys will figure out what to do we guess.

AV1 has some heavyweights behind it too (Google, Netflix) who really, really want out of the MPEG patent monopolies.

Bandcamp also gives you whatever format you want, mpeg or xiph, so.

the public doesn't care as long as they can just double click or push play in a browser, but the two OS pushers have a personal interest in denying free software. conveniently, they are also the ones who decide if double click works.

i was genuinely amazed to see xiph support in akai though. i guess pro audio gear is getting sick of everyone's shit too.

@allison yes. its hard to find media players that don't support xiph.

there is no credible reason not to support xiph. they even went through the trouble of writing integer-only decoders and shit just so people couldn't claim "oh but my mp3 player has a weak CPU."

the industry just really does not want capitalism to die, they will keep their patent minefields and claw, kick and scream until someone forcibly euthanizes them.

@thor @mewmew @shebang

@allison @mewmew @shebang @thor anyway i fucked up a thread about a fun little track with sweeps because i am an idiot. blobcatderpy

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang @amolith Just tested low bitrate Opus. Seems to degrade similarly to other modern audio codecs. Not as underwatery as MP3 but still kinda the same sound... now to see if I remembered right about Vorbis and how it degrades...

@icedquinn @allison @shebang @thor you started the thread, you can do whatever you want with it

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang @amolith Hmm, how odd, it actually degrades more like an MP3, but I swear to god it didn't do that. Did they change the encoder/format during the course of its lifetime? I remember it sounding more... "distorted", "FM radio with bad reception" as it degraded, not like this...

@thor @icedquinn @mewmew @shebang Ogg is the second most common container format to MPEG. It’s not “extremely rare.” You want extremely rare, try NSP.

If you're using FFmpeg, what parameters are you passing? iirc, the defaults are different for each codec

@cy @mewmew @icedquinn @shebang Well, common in what context?

@cy @mewmew @icedquinn @shebang I mean, when there is a download link or torrent with audio, it's extremely rare that the files are OGG. I mean, most media production tools on Mac, which is a very popular platform for such things, don't support any of the Xiph formats.

@cy @mewmew @icedquinn @shebang Do any of the Adobe tools, Sony Vegas, etc, support stuff like WebM and Ogg?

@cy @mewmew @icedquinn @shebang I always run into obstacles of lacking support when I try to use these open formats in my editing workflow because hardly any serious media production software supports them.

@amolith @icedquinn Hm, nothing special, I expect optimal audio quality for the bitrate I set...

@amolith @icedquinn ... if hand tweaking is necessary, this suggests that the defaults are shitty.

@amolith @icedquinn Granted, when I last tried Ogg, it wasn't long after it had first launched, so I expect things changed over time... but by this much? I think the encoder I used was a command line tool from Xiph itself.

@thor @cy @mewmew @shebang it looks like VP8/9 is getting the same treatment Vorbis did; MPEG holders throwing patent claims around to scare people off using it.

(was reading

Well "optimal" is different for every use-case. If you want quality, files will be larger. If you want smaller files, quality will be lower. I don't remember what exactly the defaults are but it would be better to explicitly define each one so it's a more accurate test

@thor @amolith i usually use the xiph encoder or whatever fl studio uses. ffmpeg only has good defaults for mpeg because of mpeg nerds, the non-mpeg stuff has stupid defaults most of the time (ex. if you try to make a vp8/9, you will be very sad, because it doesn't even default to a useful bit rate.)

@amolith @icedquinn I did say "optimal for the bitrate", and also, the thing should adapt. If I run it from the command line, it has time to spend a little time to do extra optimisation, whereas for streaming, then the tool that runs the library/ffmpeg should set specific flags like "ultrafast".

@amolith @thor in the xiph encoders you typically just set it to quality (-9) or size (-0) and it kinda goes from there.

ffmpeg usually involves having to set bitrates and casting runes.

@icedquinn @amolith In any case, Opus seems to degrade very well at low bitrates. They weren't kidding about these modern codecs.

@icedquinn @amolith Eh, you can do VBR in ffmpeg.

ffmpeg is a Swiss army knife. A horrendously complex one.

@icedquinn @amolith Kinda the opposite of the UNIX philosophy really... so is anything that supports multiple codecs, really...

@thor @amolith i don't like ffmpeg. i use it when i have to, but it seems indecipherable.

@icedquinn @amolith Well, it's a command line tool that frankly should be a library + a GUI.

@icedquinn @amolith It would be a very fancy GUI with shit like chainable audio and video plugins and all sorts of shit.

@icedquinn @amolith I mean, it's basically ImageMagick for A/V.

@thor @amolith there used to be a graph editor for directshow blobcatsurprised i'm not sure why gstreamer doesn't have ont.

@icedquinn @amolith Because 90% of xNIX people are like “If you wanna do something fancy, use the command line. GUIs are for dumb people.”

Windows software is really good at exposing things through GUIs. Linux and macOS and other xNIXes, not so much. If you wanna customise anything on a Mac, it’s time to bring up a shell.

On Linux, the major exception to this is KDE. They went full out bells and whistles on what you can configure via the GUI.

@thor @p @sjw @allison say it with me now

plan 9 kernel 👏
haiku desktop api 👏
smalltalk-80 👏
make computers as awesome as motherfucking lasers again ablobcatrainbow

To an extent, I do agree with "command line is ultimate" because, when you know what you want to do, there's nothing better than Ctrl+R, , replace file names, done. Whereas with GUIs, you have to wait for the application to open, click around to find the files, click a thousand buttons, adjust a million sliders, and enter a billion numbers THEN you have what you want.


@icedquinn @thor @allison @sjw ...I still like the Plan 9 desktop situation. If I were to change it, I'd just add Tk. It turns out that Inferno has this already. bwk

@p @icedquinn @sjw @thor Doesn't Inferno's Tk have little to do with the one Ousterhout & co made? Not to comment on it's quality, but Ousterhout's Tk is the most intuitive GUI library I've ever used

@allison @p @sjw @thor haiku and self's morphic aren't too much farther off tk iirc.

@icedquinn @p @sjw @thor I don't have any experience with either but I'd like to try them sometime.

@allison @p @sjw @thor although be/haiku is chad af in that every top level frame supports its own thread.

almost zero GUI libraries support threading. be did. blobcatphoto

That's an exaggeration of course but you get my point. When you already know what you want, command line tools are way more efficient than any GUI but they require a lot of time to learn and are far from intuitive. I personally prefer spending hours readings docs to hours clicking buttons though.


@icedquinn @p @sjw @thor Idle cores are the devil's playthings, don't you know?

@allison Parked cores are the devil himself.

@icedquinn @p @sjw @thor

@amolith @icedquinn I prefer the exact opposite. Did not always, but as I got closer to my 30s, I want to think less. I often neglect to automate stuff because it's much less mental effort to just click shit.

@thor @amolith Just because I can deal with the computer's bullshit does not mean I want to deal with the computer's bullshit blobcatmoustache

@amolith @icedquinn I look for shrink wrap solutions where I can, and if a piece of software forces me to think as opposed to letting me get on with what I need to do, it gets replaced with something else. I mean, my actual interest in computers as a thing to play with is rather light these days. If I didn't know how to code today, I probably wouldn't have bothered with it.

@allison @icedquinn @sjw @thor

> have little to do with the one Ousterhout & co made?

It's a compatible implementation. They haven't added some of the newer stuff like the grid command, but they basically implemented Tk and most of Tcl.

@p @icedquinn @sjw @thor Hm, neat. Definitely something to check out then!

@thatbrickster @allison @icedquinn @sjw @thor Parked cores don't jam up the memory bus.

I like to automate things that take a significant amount of time. If there's an edit I need to make to every single image in a directory, there's no way I'm opening each one in GIMP or Inkscape. I'll use some esoteric ImageMagick one-liner to do it for me.

In general, I do prefer graphical applications for graphical work though. I'm on the fence about audio but I don't have a ton of experience with it yet.

@allison @p @sjw @thor blobcatwhatsthis

haiku has advanced a bit since then, but they still host the old api manual. this is the one my api clone is based on.

one difference is since nim supports closures but not C++-ish inheritance, and since be basically only uses inheritance because C++ doesn't have closures, i just went ahead and replaced hooks with closures. otherwise its 1:1 identical.

@icedquinn @p @sjw @thor Wait, API clone? Tell me more

@thor @icedquinn @mewmew @shebang here, the requirement is changed

@thor @mewmew @icedquinn @shebang Y’know, maybe I can count the amount of times I’ve seen OGG files for download on one hand, but I can count the number of times I’ve seen ALAC on zero hands. What did they do, take the FLAC format and stick the word “Apple” in the middle of it so that your files would be broken outside their vendor lockin?

@cy @thor @mewmew @shebang No it's a different format. It's possible to do a converter for it

sometimes apple's weird formats are there because they were started before other good options existed or so they could get something that works without having other companies bikeshed. i recall some of the ProRes formats are exactly this; they were designed so ex. the old ibooks could still play then hi-def formats that cinema people used but weren't otherwise widely there.

HISE has its own lossless codec (called HLC or something) too which is just some simple four-sample linear coding or something.

sometimes these formats are just based around whatevers efficient with what the company has at the time.

@thor @icedquinn @amolith I think the issue is creating GUI interfaces take a heck of a lot of effort and a command line isn’t really all that hard to figure out. The labor saved using a GUI is often outweighed by the labor lost in creating it. Apple just hides that cost, and makes up for the loss with behavior modification, and slavery. But that’s just a guess. I don’t know how they come up with fancy GUIs that people fall over themselves for.

@cy @thor @amolith they used to hire UX designers

@cy @amolith @thor linux just tends to have crap UX in general. even when you use just some CLI app, you have the nightmare labrynth that is ffmpeg or things like git where it's a bunch of independently cobbled scrips with inconsistent commands.

i mean, httpie's whole marketing is "we're curl but the cli arguments don't require man pages to understand." and you can prod commercial mercurial teams and they'll tell you that onboarding non-nerds is far easier.

@icedquinn @mewmew @shebang @thor It’s been a long time since there weren’t any standards for audio files… FLAC is 5 years older than ALAC. I’m calling shenanigans, until I see some reason that iTunes couldn’t support FLAC instead. And it’s really not a huge deal. I’m mostly just surprised I never heard of ALAC before.

@cy @mewmew @shebang @thor encoding speed maybe? blobcatshrug

@cy @mewmew @shebang @thor i would have to do a lot deeper peeking. I know HISE doesn't use flac because it's an archival format and not that suitable for sampler streaming. MPC ONE can read flac too, but only when loading to RAM.

@thor @icedquinn @amolith

> Ms good at exposing through gui

Good at doing a lot of it.

Before, there was control panel.
Now, it is split into 3 or 4 different settings app and you really have to guess which option is arbitrarily only accessible via a particular one of them. Sometimes, you can use either of two out of three of such programs.
It is really messy. Really fucking messy.

@byllgrim @thor @amolith meanwhile on macos you just type in to the search bar and it literally highlights on the screen where that setting is blobcatlaugh